Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

That's the nicest use of the word wanker to describe me, lol.

I'm not sure. I think it's the ubiquitous, empty, Groundhog Day nature of online porn that's more the issue than my age.

You had to work "harder" to get magazines or videos/DVDs. Online? It's right there, in your lap (pun intended) so to speak.

And with convenience comes repetition. And with repetition comes boredom. And with boredom comes the need for excitement. And with the need for excitement comes the never ending search. Ad infinitum.

Luckily I was never so obsessed by it. But online porn can easily become as unbiquitous as wallpaper.

Now our new friends out there, we've seen them all on Reduxx, "her penis" rapists etc, the visible glammed up influencers, from all I've read, their porn obsession is embedded in this "self love" of themselves as the "perfect" woman. But porn at this level also generates such negative imagery of women, that the conflicts are enormous.

And that's before you even consider the sub sub categories of Sissy Porn, Furry Porn, Anime pedophilic imagery.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused at the sarcasm - I mentioned equality of opportunity at the start of my comment? I know it exists :s

My point was that there are also branches of feminism which do not agree with this stance, and which advocate for positive discrimination. "Male applicant need not apply" for example to fill quota's.
I'd imagine that's likely the type of feminism that OP found to be "going too far", as I kind of feel the same if I'm being honest.

As I said, I'd rather be hired because I'm competent and have good work ethic, not because of my sex.

Have you ever considered that a man might think it respectful to be open about his sex rather than imply that he’s female when he signs up to Mumsnet? I personally don’t want to dominate discussions here, and have been trying to do more listening than talking; difficult for me, as those who know me would confirm. But this board, and the people on it (you included) have helped me to reconsider my assumptions.

I agree, we need men in this fight too.

We are all words on a screen here. We have no idea who else we're talking to.

Unless it is relevant to the subject, we don't tend to announce anything personal about ourselves. Sex isn't any different. It's not about respect.

As some of us say on this issue all the time: when sex matters, it matters. When it doesn't, it doesn't. Most of the time, it doesn't.

Normally, when we announce something personal it is to express some knowledge, experience or authority:

'As a lawyer in this field...'

'As a teacher myself..'

'As the parent of a child with ADHD...'

So 'as a man...'; can come across a little like: 'as an expert come to put women right...' unless it is immediately relevant

The description was, IIRC, pretty much that of a drag queen, or at least a very made up man in a dress, and I am scared of clowns. Or, more seriously, I tend to be uneasy in unfamiliar social situations.

I'm one week new to MN. Really unsure how many, if any, other men on here. The male perspective on gender issues is in many ways fundamentally different from the female one.

All reasons why I identified myself the way I did. Claiming my perspective as male is superior, is not the reason. Even if it might appear that way.

The first thing I searched for

Oh of course! I didn't mean now, where it is the whole point of the thread.

I'm just explaining why, most of the time on here, it doesn't matter and you don't need to announce it on, say, a thread about parking.

Some men have done this and it doesn't go well.

I think a lot of posters on this topic are men. Feminism is providing a shelter for male anti trans sentiment.

People who are happy with that are probably not people whose gender critical perspectives came from their feminism, but the other way around.

Very easy actually to have countered him. Of course a socialist can explain capitalism. How do you think Marx formulated his theories? By not understanding free markets? Ditto Thatcher knows all about socialism. Your husband isn't quite as clever as he thinks in this respect.

It's perfectly straightforward to understand what TRAs are and what they believe. They contend that we may all be born with a biological sex. But that doesn't represent us. Or how we represent ourselves to the world.
That our innate gender may vary, how we feel about ourselves, and how we want the world to feel about us, is in our control, our choice.

No more biological evolution and destiny, via our genes and chromosomal determination.
No, we're back to the behavioural theory of man...the intelligent ape, the blank slate.

Our sense of worth is definitive, not what roll of the dice the game of evolutionary chance deals us.

What other situations would provoke a similar reaction then? Or is this just dressed up aversion to men in frocks?

I really don't care what sex posters are, just whether they are interesting. On occasion someone can give an interesting insight on a particular topic, so it's not like it's never worth mentioning. But in general I don't feel anyone needs to announce themselves. There are a couple men who post regularly on this topic.

My only two things I would add from my experience - this idea that men felt disenfranchised by being told they couldn't have men only spaces. I think that's somewhat true, there were plenty of women who not only wanted to ban men only groups in limited situations, but thought any kind of male only club or group was illegitimate. I remember when gender ideology was still new and some of women started complaining that their single sex groups were being infiltrated, you heard from the same people - other women asking why you would even have single sex groups any more. And this has filtered down to my kids age-group, whole hog - quite a lot of them find the whole idea of things like single sex university residences, any kind of club, etc, is just weird. (As an aside I think this sense made them especially vulnerable to gender ideology.)

I do think there were some men, particularly regular kinds of guys, who rather resented this. Some silently. Or resented being told they were being sexist for not thinking women, on average, could play the same roles in certain types of heavy work as men, or noticing on worksites when they could not do so. These guys just stopped talking about it. But it's impacted how they react to what's going on now.

But I also think a lot of me haven't waded in because they've been told a lot of times that they should stay out of women's issues. And they see that women seem divided over it, which is a problem if you've been taught that you are supposed to support groups without actually engaging your brain in the actual issues.

Tbh, I think it's been a retrograde step for men and women not to maintain their exclusive spaces.

None of that justifies what's currently going on.

But there are so many situations where socially it's great if XX and XY can socialise exclusively.

I even think that applies to schools.

The absolute best thing you could do is get a few mates together and head to the 'let women speak' events and create a barrier between the women and TRAs.

Hahaha oh I’m so embarrassed. You got me!!

Personally I'm not that interested in hearing men's opinions on this subject. Mainly because in my experience they come across as caring more about being right and winning debates rather than the safety and rights of women.

Case in point is Dennis Noel Kavanagh. He pops up quite often in my Twitter thread (I guess because of the GC women I follow) and his hot takes make me cringe.

Strikes me as someone who is disappointed that the gay rights struggle is generally considered to be over and wants something new to lecture people about. I'm convinced he will become a hardline TRA if we ever manage to achieve the main GC goals.

@AmuseBish probably not very well explained but… I meant more that women have more in common with Trans people in terms if experiencing discrimination and in terms of sexual violence. And this is why I’m dubious about the need to exclude Trans women.

I think the experience of being female differs dramatically from person to person, and this obsession with essential biology puts us all at risk of not being feminine or female enough.

Interesting. So, after dozens of posts from me, you're happy to generalise and just cast me with the mansplainers?

A few thoughts from me after a bigger reaction to my thread than I thought I'd get.

First, I really had no idea that declaring my sex heading up my thread would be a point of conjecture.

From: men, who cares what they think.

To: men, here they come to mansplain/save the day.

Second, I thought my deep dive into porn would generate more debate than my comments about male attitudes to the feminism of two decades ago and battles on mens spaces.

Third, despite me repeatedly saying my attitudes at the time now shown to be outmoded, built on unreasonable bitterness, that I've fully come around...as I suspected they would do, the comments raised hackles...but not what I suspected, more hackles than my descriptions of pornified TRAs. As if me, and men in general, can't be trusted here. That men's antipathy to feminism in the past is more agitating than pornified TRAs scorched earth battle with feminism today.

And that somehow, my descriptions on phenomena from a male PoV are irrelevant to this struggle which is a feminist one, me as a male is part of the problem.

Thanks for all the comments and posts putting me on the spot, I've fulminated on these thoughts for many years with zero letting off steam (other than long suffering GF and mates). I'll reflect on why so many of my thoughts have riled so many, and reflect on those good enough to comment my views were worth airing.

So do you think toilets should be segregated by those who experience discrimination and are at rsk of sexual violence and those who aren't? Why are you 'obsessed with the trans label in relation to this? Gay men, black men, disabled men, all experience discrimination so they should be in the ladies? The men's is just for the able, straight, white men? What's your evidence that ttans men experience sexual violence at the same rate as women? How does that change depending on how the men present? To be trans youbdonr have to change your body, clothes or any aspect of your presentation. So someone who looks like every other man can be trans. Why would they be at greater risk of sexual violence than someone who looks the same but isn't trans identifying? Why call the loos the ladies if that's not the characteristic that is required for entry? Why does risk of sexual violence and discrimination mean you neednyour own category in sports? Given that men are usually the sexually violent ones, why allow some into the ladies loos when TW sexually offend at the same rate as bother males?

I'm afraid your imperfectly-crafted Title and OP have got your thread off to a rocky start but I do recall that you were invited to start a thread!

FWIW I am interested in hearing the male perspective and so I hope that you (and the other men of FWR) continue to post. I don't expect to agree with everything you say, but I'd like to think that grown-ups can read stuff they disagree with and discuss things and agree to disagree.

My question for the thread (or perhaps more of a general observation that has no answer) is: Why do you think so many GC men* just keep quiet and not say anything? Do they feel it's a "stay out of women's lane" thing? Are they (understandably) fearful for their careers/jobs/status?

*I don't mean men who haven't even spotted the issue because they're oblivious, I mean men who genuinely understand that there is an issue.

I'm not at all obsessed with biology. I agree that being female of course doesn't guarantee any sort of shared characteristics, behaviours, beliefs.

It's likely to be the root of some shared experiences like menstruating, being smaller/lighter than the average male and the consequences of this, and data based on our bodies being left out of safety tests, medical tests etc.

But you clearly think that women as a group have "experience of discrimination and sexual violence" in common? Do you see why you're kind of contradicting yourself? Do these people experience this because they have female bodies (I'm not actually clear whether you meant female people), or because they have certain thoughts, characteristics or behaviours that you think of as "woman" thoughts/ behaviours?

I don't think anyone is trying to exclude transwomen from the group of "people who have experienced discrimination or sexual violence". You can have a group of those people regardless of sex.

People are excluding male-born people - who have various feelings and thoughts that they believe count as "woman" - from the group "female". Just as we exclude 7 year olds from the group "adult" and people who haven't passed a driving test from the group "car drivers". It's a descriptive term, not a VIP area.

I could ask you to say the same thing about women.

In the likely 100 people I've asked, 50/50 split male female, all are GC to some extent, all find trans inconsistencies laughable and confusing, all opposed to men in women's spaces, all suspicious of teen medicalisation.

And ALL not that minded to turn a skeptical opinion into one that clinches their vote one way or the other.

ALL put the priority behind CoL, NHS, housing, policing etc.

Yes, the women I've spoken to might keep the conversation going, but few are het up, believing compromises will be found to keep everyone happy.

And the #BeKind #NoBullying #BeYourself mantras have been so powerful that women talk to me describing losing female rights yet not angry and vowing it'll never happen.

Why do men keep quiet? Yes, men are more selfish than women, trans is no threat to them, and that's all that matters.

As I posted, if a woman entered men's sport and trashed a Djokovic or a Chris Hoy (back in the day), maybe this would provoke a reaction.

Until then...