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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

477 replies

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 16:07

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

OP posts:
Brefugee · 01/04/2023 19:38

I'll come to you in future to learn more. Sorry my thoughts so wide of the mark, so uninformative.

don't be That Person. You were going to give us your man's pov of the TRA thinking. Of which you have provided zero.
And it isn't my job to teach you.

Original poster
RealityFan · 01/04/2023 19:39

lifeissweet · 01/04/2023 19:16

I think the crux of the enlightenment we are getting here is the same as it ever was:

i.e. it's women's fault.

Op is trying to tread a line by claiming to be the good and enlightened man, but the point remains the same.

Women: you asked for too much. You asked for it in the wrong tone.

This is consequences.

I'm saying that's part of it. I don't support it.

OP posts:
literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:40

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 19:27

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman.

I would recommend you talk to a trans woman more about this.

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What are the stats re this? I wonder how they compare to the dangers which present to women in women's loos now that any man who says he's a woman is allowed in - including things like a middle-age man feeling entitled to change from 'men's clothes' into 'women's clothes' in the ladies and harassing girls who call him out on this.

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:42

RealityFan · 01/04/2023 19:39

I'm saying that's part of it. I don't support it.

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To be clear... you are saying that some of it is women's fault?

Because they challenged their subjugation?
Because they were not 'nice enough' in the language they used?

If so, you still have some way to go to develop a moral attitude.

Original poster
RealityFan · 01/04/2023 19:43

Brefugee · 01/04/2023 19:35

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman.
I would recommend you talk to a trans woman more about this.

we have a man here who is supposed to give us the man's view on this. BUT HE WON'T ANSWER. It is infuriating

perhaps what the op is saying isn't news to you or many commenting here. But you don't have to engage with the thread

i (and others) came here in good faith to hear a pov that doesn't get a lot of airing. But - not surprisingly - we didn't get that. It's just another chap writing words. Nothing the OP has said isn't something we haven't already talked about in FWR. Several times over. An honest male pov would (have been) useful and interesting

What is it specifically I won't answer?

I can be accused of many things, but not giving an honest pov is not one of them.
What you mean is, I'm not giving the pov you specifically want.

OP posts:
nepeta · 01/04/2023 19:43

It's good to hear different views, though all of us can only give our own views so nobody really can talk for their own sex. But I have wondered, quite a bit, about the question why so many women (certainly young feminists such as in the NOW) seem to be unaware of the existence of paraphilias and how they can sometimes be forced on others and how those who have one also often have others, some of them clearly not safe for others involuntarily drawn into them.

So my question would be if the OP thinks that men, in general, have always been more aware of paraphilias or not and how they might affect some men to decide to live as women, how common they are and so on, or if the usual understanding among the men he knows is just about people "born in the wrong body" or the current social justice version of that, i.e., without understanding that transitioners seem to have many different explanations for their desire to do so, and some explicitly state agp as the reason.

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 19:45

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:40

What are the stats re this? I wonder how they compare to the dangers which present to women in women's loos now that any man who says he's a woman is allowed in - including things like a middle-age man feeling entitled to change from 'men's clothes' into 'women's clothes' in the ladies and harassing girls who call him out on this.

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Exactly. Stats please. There are many many instances of women being sexually assaulted by men in women's toilets. I would recommend you talk to women more about this.

QueenHippolyta · 01/04/2023 19:48

@literalviolence the reality is that men had a good deal and resented giving it up. It's like a spoiled child with tons of toys who is suddenly required to share...
I think the OP is saying he matured and grew out of his selfish ways.

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:49

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 19:45

Exactly. Stats please. There are many many instances of women being sexually assaulted by men in women's toilets. I would recommend you talk to women more about this.

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Agree. This is not to deny there are some assaults. There have been some and it should not happen. Male violence is a problem. The answer is to tackle that not to open the ladies to every man who has a 'woman gender identity'. It's a telling argument to say 'if one TW is assaulted by a man in the male loos than TW should be able to use the ladies' and NOT to say 'is one woman is assaulted by a TW or someone who pretends to be a TW in order to access the ladies loo, than no TW should be able to use the ladies'. Have a think on that disparity.

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 19:50

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 19:45

Exactly. Stats please. There are many many instances of women being sexually assaulted by men in women's toilets. I would recommend you talk to women more about this.

Show quote history

Can you please provide me with stats then

Stillcountingbeans · 01/04/2023 19:58

Op explained how (most) men think way back on page one:

Men split into three camps.
"Trans, fucking weirdos!"
"Not on my radar, not my problem"
"TWAW"...although this is an outlier

Depressing, though not surprising, that none of these three groups are actually thinking about women.
I expect that most men don't spend much/any time thinking about women's issues or women's POV. They only think of women as domestic providers or sex providers. In any other context, women are not on their radar.

Whilst it is true that some men actively hate women, I believe most men are completely indifferent to women (outside of the specific domestic/sex things that women provide for them).

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 19:58

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 19:50

Can you please provide me with stats then

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Katie Dolatowski. That's one. Look him up. There are more. Stats though? That's a hard one since many news outlets call the attackers "women". And police list these attacks as women's crimes in the stats.

Sucks to be us, right?

Original poster
RealityFan · 01/04/2023 19:58

literalviolence · 01/04/2023 19:37

OP I am really finding your writing hard to understand. I think it would help if you used full sentences and paragraphs. I do mean that genuinely, this is not a dig.

This bit I really could not get: "I remember radical feminists saying that men shouldn't exclude women, they'll be plotting to end the rights second wavers fought for.
I truly believe this was a misstep at the time, I was as pissed off with women interfering in our fun."

Who will be plotting to end the rights? Who said this?

What I think you're saying is that your moral compass was way off 20 years ago and you were a bit of a MRA. You did not want to give up male privilege to any degree, so like lots of men, you decided to pretend that women were 'taking things too far' in order that you could push them back into their box. Something seems to have happened to make you ashamed of your previous views. Is that right? If so, can you tell us what? What made you notice what you were doing? Does knowledge of that change factor impact how you challenge the men who are continuing to feel threatened by women's rights at the current time?

I actually do think your views are interesting. I think you're saying that misogynist men have been stewing for 20 years because they were in a comfortable position and did not care to think about who was paying for their comfort. The roots of the entitlement which underpins the 'TWAW' trope are deep. It makes me wonder whether increased education about female inequality and oppression would be helpful - only if properly communicated that this is based on body, not identity though of course. Pretending that TW have the same history as women and suffer the same discrimination and oppression is just offensive and an act of aggression IMHO

How do you think men can start to challenge other men such that a woman in a frock does not even get verbal harassment in a loo do you think?

I'm as far from a typical alpha male as you can get, but I still indulged in moping about, irritated by feminists always being vocal about opposition to Page 3, strip clubs etc.

I was less a MRA than a social libertarian, any impediment to full-on freeing up of porn, prostitution, drugs, euthanasia, was anathema to me.

Feminism from a biased male perspective was all about restrictions. Yes, I realise now how preposterous that sounds.

As to my turning point. Well, it was more a turning decade. I felt better at work, in my social life, looked at people in the round, critically became grounded by the most amazing woman, moved away from porn.

No, I'm no angel, I just woke up. And as I fully realised some of my previous dark impulses, I recognised these immediately in the TRA movement and individuals.

And latched onto their tropes, tactics, dark energy. And then got peaked as the very same feminists who would have scolded me for my misogynist views suddenly shifted the terrain to become apologists and facilitators.

So my move back to empathy and lifelong objectivist outlook now got dislocated by the new misogyny and seeming societal acceptance.

And my Red Pill moment has never calmed down.

OP posts:
Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/04/2023 19:58

Male toilets are dangerous to trans woman

Where is all the actual evidence for this?

What is it women are told by TRA'S again? Oh yeah, if a man attacks you in the toilets, just call the police.

So the transwomen can use the men's facilities and simply call the police if attacked by another man can't they?

Males feeling uncomfortable using male facilities doesn't entiltle them to use female facilities.

turbonerd · 01/04/2023 20:04

@RealityFan
when you write:

I grew up.
I stopped porn.
I interrogated my thoughts on lots of things (women, gays, migrants etc).

what were the factors that prompted you to stop porn and to interrogate your thoughts?

I had a long super thoughtful (I promise!) post but it got deleted, so I’ll just post my question

Stillcountingbeans · 01/04/2023 20:04

As to what goes on in the mind of TRA's and TW, OP has kind of explained in places.

It is bog-standard hatred/resentment of women, mixed up with a whole load of porn.

Stillcountingbeans · 01/04/2023 20:06

I think because so many women spend so much time thinking about men, it is quite a surprise to women to realise how little time men spend thinking about women, apart from in the context of sex/porn.

BlüeöysterCunt · 01/04/2023 20:10

Stillcountingbeans · 01/04/2023 20:06

I think because so many women spend so much time thinking about men, it is quite a surprise to women to realise how little time men spend thinking about women, apart from in the context of sex/porn.

Yeah they don't care except as another poster pointed out, when it's a woman that belongs to them. "Not MY wife, daughter etc".

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 20:12

Bathhy a tangent but it is interesting (by which I mean crazy) that when a transwoman commits a crime it is reported as a crime committed by a woman. When a transman commits a crime it is reported as a crime committed by a woman. Women are responsible whether they did it or a man did it.

turbonerd · 01/04/2023 20:13

BlüeöysterCunt · 01/04/2023 20:10

Yeah they don't care except as another poster pointed out, when it's a woman that belongs to them. "Not MY wife, daughter etc".

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This is what riles me about my DH

beholdaman · 01/04/2023 20:17

Username inspired by the initial reception to the OP.

I'm online a lot more than my wife, so I actually introduced her to FWR (as well as Ovarit; I kind of think of that place as the Posie Parker to this place's JK Rowling, if that makes sense).

As I recall, it was Magdalen Berns who convinced me to go from Trans Women Are Trans Women to Trans Women Are Men. Stir in a little more than 3 years listening to the witches here and I'm itching to say something out in real life. Just never get the opportunity!

BackOfTheMum5net · 01/04/2023 20:19

I’m a cis woman and I feel I have more in common with Trans women than a cis het man.

Bathhy · 01/04/2023 20:19

ILikeDungs · 01/04/2023 19:58

Katie Dolatowski. That's one. Look him up. There are more. Stats though? That's a hard one since many news outlets call the attackers "women". And police list these attacks as women's crimes in the stats.

Sucks to be us, right?

Show quote history

I can't really be bothered breaking down the statistics below so I'm just going to give you the survey and let you read it

transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/resources/NTDS_Report.pdf