Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

@RealityFan
I think the reason we are defending the end of male only social spaces isn't because you said you wanted them back. I think it's because you have implied that, although you have seen the light and changed your mind, other men may be hanging on to resentment and that has partly fuelled the misogyny inherent in the trans movement.

Apologies if I have that wrong.

I'm absolutely saying this. Part of what fuels the New Misogyny is the Old Misogyny.

I never sought out those spaces, but what I call the Clare Short Ban Page 3 movement still rankles with many men.

Not trying to be sassy or antagonistic apologies if it comes across that way, but can we please stop pretending that women & girls aren't capable of being nasty and abusive?

Every single one of my bullies throughout life has been female, bar one boy who was special needs and just would punch anyone who was near by.

Outside Waverly Train station in Edinburgh a little over a week ago, it was a group of female school children I saw shouting at and abusing a homeless veteran with a tiny white dog in the freezing snow.
It was myself and another man (who saw from across the street and came to help) who stepped in and made the girls leave him alone.

I'm not naïve enough to assume he was telling the truth on his cardboard sign, he may well have been lying, everyone lies at some point, but I'm compassionate enough to know that someone wouldn't be sat in literal snow, dressed in what he was wearing, unless they had no other choice, and that hurling abuse at someone minding their own business sorting their dog's food out is just cruel.

Do you have brothers and did you go to a mixed sex school?

No brothers, just me. Abusive & alcoholic father though if that counts for anything.

I went to a mixed sex primary (mix of state of private), mixed sex middle school, then an All girls CofE high school, then mixed sex college.

I generally found I got on better with males than I did females.
All my friends from high school who had gone to the same college as me stopped bothering to even smile when we passed, let alone wanted to hang out, and that wasn't from lack of trying either lol :')

If that’s the case, then I disagree. I think the men who resented losing their page 3 only supported transactivism to hurt feminism. The whole ‘SWERF and TERF’ thing. They united over a common enemy- radical feminists, but they are not gender critical, it just got out of hand now and they are dismayed that they are expected to ogle blokes in Victoria’s Secret ads, beauty pageants and lap dance clubs.

The (younger) transactivist blokes are motivated by contempt for women from a different source.

That explains why most of your bullies have been female.

I too hung out with mainly blokes, as a teenager, I am still haunted by some of the shit the blokes I know came out with. I believe some of them were rapists from the way they’d joke about sexual encounters.

I mean... Yeah? They still exist and still did those things though?

I'd also say that most bullying that went on was from the mixed sex schools though.
The girls school I went to was the only one that was fairly on top of bullying and nipped that stuff in the bud almost immediately. They were 0 tolerance on that kind of stuff generally speaking, they weren't afraid to exclude people for acting up.

It was moving from the girls school to college, that suddenly people I once had never had problems with, suddenly started being really hostile out of nowhere (Of the ones who went to the same college as me).

I am even haunted by what I believe were probably gang assault/rapes I heard about, where they were minimised , where people would say (even their girlfriends) “oh she’s a slag, she was loving it - she was laughing”. I had enough compassion to know that laughing in disbelief/terror is not unusual.

Me too.
I was in a band for a few years with only blokes and witnessed some horrible things that make me shudder looking back.

They were all educated, gay rights supporting, anti racist, lefties too.

I don't know why I didn't see it.

They have, incidentally, described GC beliefs as being held by 'toxic nazis' We aren't in touch anymore.

💐 It’s traumatic.

Sorry OP but since you used the term 'mute point' I can no longer support male-only spaces.
In future if people want to know why radfems kicked off, you can point to this as the starting point.

I'll have better things to do, like supporting women. Maybe I can leave the points scoring to you. Use whatever emoji you think appropriate.

These are classic MN emoji! Classic, I say! You even have to click on a special section to get them! I refuse to get with the times and use the normal WhatsApp type ones.

I don't doubt that for a second, and I'm not trying to minimise that stuff in any way at all, I agree that what you're talking about here is abhorrent - All I'm saying is that pretending that women can't also be sexual abusers, physical abusers, emotional abusers, the list goes on, isn't particularly helpful :/

In my parents marriage, my dad was abusive.
In my grandparents marriage, it was my nan who was abusive.

Special section?

Well, my mum always did say I was special.

I think it's reasonable for both sexes to want some single sex spaces. I get that you're not trying to justify the TRA reasoning but understand where it might have come from.

I'm... surprised by some of the defensiveness here. In my opinion I would say that where people want to split of with (e.g.) members of their own sex that should be fine. If it isn't then I think the burden of proof (so to speak) should be on those arguing why it is a problem not on those having to argue why they need/want single sex spaces. Otherwise it causes issues- in some cases its actually very easy to argue why single sex spaces are needed (toilets, changing rooms, trauma support). But in other cases (my kickboxing lessons/the shed just for retired men) its less straightforward - I reckon I could still argue the case but it would take more effort. And yes - there are times when its discriminatory (e.g. in professional networking, maybe businesses/sports faciilities discriminating for no good reason) but it should be possible to argue those cases are discrimination quite easily.

In other words, I think demanding realityfan explains why men would ever need/want single sex spaces is a little unfair. I couldn't necessarily articulate why I prefer women only kickboxing I just do. Though its much much less important to me than women being safe in prisons, school children having privacy in changing rooms. Fortunately its not either/or and shouldn't be for men either.

@EndlessTea I do understand. Iam still deeply bothered by some of the things male medical students I knew said about examinations etc. Bleurghhh. I really hope they were just posturing or grew up by the time they left medical school.

Thanks one and all for taking part, including those holding me to the fire.

Genuine apologies if I came across to some as a "typical bloke". I guess the nuances of language become all important here.

More importantly, the LWS event today went brilliantly, let's hope 2023 is a red letter year, a real line in the sand, casting the recent past of total frustration, into a future where those in power, and critically those who want to be, just get real.

Yes, thanks for this.
I stopped reading the thread at this point.
The vast, vast majority of childcare is still done by women, with all the attendant impacts on their financial well-being and independence. Women were only given equal rights to custody in 1973. Fifty years ago. Despite being the main and default carers for centuries. The development of F4J came about because women were being treated as more as equal parents in the law.

Some of the stuff on this thread to me demonstrates why some men might have felt resentful. It's like:

"We women find value of different kinds (safety, companionship, etc) in having some single sex spaces for women. Don't you men dare question what we as women see as important for ourselves as a sex, that's overstepping."

"Male only spaces are over-stepping, if you men say you find value in them, you are just hiding a misogynistic desire to put one over on women in some way, there is no other reason for that and we as women know that about men."

None of this means there can never be inappropriate instances of single-sex places that need to be discussed and maybe regulated in some way, but there is a real sense that women must be supported to decide what women need, and women should also get to say what men need.

I'd say it's part of the hierarchy of oppression paradigm which has been plenty justified in certain streams of feminism. Which we can see the result of - an overwhelming sense by many on the left that the real facts or the content of any argument, is less important than who is supposed to have the power - we need only to look at the power relation to know what is the "right side of history."

And I'd just point out that gone to far often really means, took a wrong turn. It's entirely possible for a problem to not be solved, but a particular set of policies to try and achieve that to be wrongheaded.

On a personal note I would like to thank you. You may not have provided the light that you hoped but the thread itself has provided a lot of illumination.