Trans rights activism, a GC male perspective

[RealityFan]

Hallo Mumsnet allies, from recently-joined new comrade in arms. And a male to boot.
I've been deliberating leaving some thoughts on the scarred landscape that is trans activism, from an XY perspective. I'm unsure of how much interest a guy's thoughts are here.
My opinions range from the autogynephile/porn "sharp end" of the phenomenon, through my views as a male non parent on the phenomenon amongst teens, through the threat to free speech/institutional capture area, segueing nicely into the Labour Party's position and what this means post-2024 GE.
I need to be frank in this discussion, and some of what I might say may rub some readers the wrong way, but it's my heartfelt analysis.
I'm seeing very little from GC men online, save for Graham Linehan, Malcolm Clark, Dennis Noel Kavanagh, Simon Edge, Colin Wright, Billboard Chris, Wesley Yang, Jon Pike.
My take is of someone who's really thought a lot about this subject, has really weighed up lots of factors, and has really come down on the GC side, indeed is working hard to reconcile very strong emotions on the subject.
I'll post my thoughts if that's wanted, let me know.

All we need to complete the set is talk of how empowering prostitution is for women and feminists are to blame for any harm by ‘driving it underground’.

I've somewhat over estimated my oracle-like capabilities, I thought a bit of direct insight from the male perspective might be novel or informative, but it seems I was wrong.

However I didn't expect my comments on the pressure on men-only spaces two decades ago to have generated such heat.

My reading of it is that it's actually your assertion that men need men only leisure spaces nowadays which is the issue.

your assertion that men need men only leisure spaces nowadays which is the issue.

Indeed.

And since ‘men only leisure spaces’ were never truly men only, because women would be serving or stripping for the men in them, it is obvious the need does not mirror women’s need.

If my thread is going to hinge on this issue, then I haven't got much more to say.

If the consensus view on here is that it's not compatible with women's rights that there are circumstances where men can have exclusive spaces, then I can only disagree.

Ironic since I've never been attracted to them myself.

Truth. Mens spaces were facilitated.
And since ‘men only leisure spaces’ were never truly men only, because women would be serving or stripping for the men in them, it is obvious the need does not mirror women’s need.

Thank you for caring about the trans issue OP, I wish more men did

IME the only men I know who like men only spaces, literally no women, not even serving them, are gay men attending gay saunas, or the men only basement of nightclubs, etc. And this is, again, for totally different reasons Women want women-only space.

I absolutely do. Im actually undergoing CBT to manage my reactions to TRA, and work at my inner peace. I somewhat regret mentioning exclusive spaces, this is by no means anything I've lost sleep over trying to promote, it's the smaller part of my overall thesis on the roots of this phenomenon.

But my answers have just riled many on here. Not my aim.

Men need and want men- only spaces. Just like I enjoy and want my female only spaces.

I remember when newly out around 2007 I used to play on a gay -lesbian softball team. We'd have lunch after. All the gay men sat on one side of the long table and the Lesbians on the other (I was in the middle)
The men talked about work, their boat, car, tech, the gym, money: THINGS. The Lesbians talked about their girlfriends, their pets, problems they had, children: RELATIONSHIPS

I was shocked and recent studies have shown in very egalitarian countries like Sweden the difference between the sexes is even greater.

Who has actually said that men can have no exclusive spaces? Are you listening to what women are saying here?

The argument is that men absolutely can have male only spaces in some situations (changing rooms, hospital wards, support groups for example) but not in business or whole service leisure contexts. It is hugely unhelpful to caricature this in the way you have. Honestly it feels like another example of a man thinking he knows it all and therefore not needing to listen to a woman. As you continue to want, e.g. a golf club to be entirely able to exclude women, can you spell out more clearly what needs this would meet which can't be met for men in other ways and how you would ensure that there are no business discussions in that context and an equal quality club provided for women only?

This thread is multi-faceted and not just about this issue.

That's not really what's being discussed here though. No-one is saying people can't choose who they sit with. They are saying lets not have e.g. golf clubs able to exclude women permanently and as part of their service statement. Hardly the same.

I am also supportive of gay men having their men only spaces.

I think both women and men need single sex spaces for privacy and dignity and therapeutic situations (which could count as privacy).

I can understand wanting a single sex gym, because you don’t want to be ogled, but golf isn’t somewhere you are going to have to worry about that.

I also can understand that it would feel like a loss, to lose a certain part of culture. For example, if in your sector, a lot of business talk takes place in the pub after work, then you get pulled up by HR that Muslim employees are excluded by it, so you have to stop going to the pub, it’s going to hurt. Something fun will become more forced, formalised and worky and probably fizzle out.

Women with impostor syndrome and no male socialisation in the mix could potentially strain what was an easy culture where a load of blokes are on the same page.

But it is important for the sake of fairness to address these inequalities anyway, even though it’s fun-spongey.

And that's not what I've said either. Please stop repeating the "another man is here to say how it's gonna be" trope. That's not me.

OP - no one ever controls the direction of a thread. It goes where people feel they want to further a discussion point.

I think it has evolved here because when asked what you believe the causes are, you said it's a backlash against feminism. When asked what elements, you said men's spaces and things like Page 3.

We are reacting to what you said.

Then: toxic masculinity messaging (agreed) and general misogyny that has found a new outlet (also agreed). Because no one really disagrees with these points, there is no interesting discussion to be had on these points. They have been discussed ad-infinitum on these boards.

That's why I think that has become the focus.

Those men really loved libertarian feminism and sex positivity, but are very reluctant to budge up and make space for actual equality. It is massively disappointing to witness.

Yes. Funnily enough it was all about getting off, all along. Same with being threatened about erosion of "mens spaces". They are scared we will ruin their fun stop them having bawdy conversations and patting the waitress on the bum .

Damn...

deletes Man Has Arrived gif

Sure. My point was not to go back to only all-male golf clubs, Page 3, open season strip clubs etc.

I stuck up for them back in the day partly for free market and partly male chauvinist pig reasons.

However to say that all-male social spaces are to be looked down on, across the board, seems short sighted.

I was in the pub the other day, and a bunch of slightly sad older guys were huddled at a table, and it was evident they only wanted male company. One wife continually called her husband every 5 mins, and he really needed his space.

Are we really saying this adds to the sum total of misogyny?

I'd say exactly the same if a group of women wanted their social space free of men.

None of these oldies was ready to don a costume and megaphone.

Somewhat of a mute point, there are more clubs or meets likely to be female-only, business networking has really taken off amongst XX.

more clubs or meets likely to be female-only, business networking has really taken off amongst XX.

This is for compensation purposes, not domination purposes.

I'm not making any value judgement on those. But you are on any all-male spaces.

Also, if you look closely, you’ll see it is for those who ‘identify’ as XX.

Anything for women has blokes identifying as women in it.

How can you state I do know one thing. What makes men tick.

How can you, one man, say you know this? Genuine question here. I am a woman, but could not say I know what makes women tick. Or I kind of could...in that so many different things, experiences, personalities, income, location, religion, cultural influences, parenting differences, just immeasurable differences combine to make women tick. Differently.

You just have to read any thread here and you can see a variety of view points.

So, yes, how can you state I do know one thing. What makes men tick.

How does your view of how men tick tally with my husband (torn as feminist, very fair and moral, staunch defender and protector of the rights of his daughter, sisters, wife, mother, each and any woman...but also cousin who is a transwoman, who he has spoken in depth with about her struggle). Do you know how he ticks?

Yes, because it is not equivalent.