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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NBC are quoting a police chief in Nashville...

482 replies

FusionChefGeoff · 27/03/2023 22:37

That's all I'm saying - Google is your friend and it's in the byline.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
ArabellaScott · 28/03/2023 14:07

'The attack was America's 129th mass shooting of 2023, according to Gun Violence Archive, a non-profit that tracks gun violence data.
According to data compiled by Education Week, there have been 12 school shootings that have resulted in deaths or injuries in the US this year up until the end of last week.'

Horrific.

QueenHippolyta · 28/03/2023 14:20

So of the 4 female shooters 50% were women who identified as male. That's huge and rightly is a big issue. Are there any respected psychoanalysts or profilers with an opinion on this?

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 28/03/2023 14:37

I’ve listed all the female perps I can find who are either ‘school shooters’ (this list features perps with between 0-6 fatalities)

or

‘mass public shooters’ (these are the 4 that come up in the 4 of 172 statistic lots of newspapers go with, compiled by The Violence Project).

Plus

all the female public shooters I can find who don’t show up on the other 2 lists but fit the ‘public shooter’ definition in everything except fatality numbers (these perps have 2 or 3 fatalities and the usual criteria is 4 plus).

Between 1979 and yesterday, across all three groups, I’ve come up with a total of 14 names.

3 of the 14 identify as transmen.

The transman perpetrated crimes take place in 2018, 2019 & 2023.

obvs this is an extremely non-expert compilation (I’m just a normie that likes to double check stuff myself to the best of my ability so I don’t needlessly contribute to the never ending stream of slightly-wrong ‘facts’ online).

Can copy over my list of dates and names if Mumsnetters want to see it/check it over but I am mindful of the media’s attempts at downplaying names of perps to minimise glorification and copycat crimes.

My middle aged British brain cannot cope with using American geographical references or names of institutions tho, I just get muddled up with stuff like The Denver Shooter/The Colarado Shooter which isn’t helpful for getting facts as straight as possible!

EsmaCannonball · 28/03/2023 15:23

It's evident that many men identify as women because they have a pornified fantasy of being a women. With women who identify as men we tend to focus on those girls who are reacting to internalised misogyny and lesbophobia, but it's just possible that a small minority of trans-identified females are attracted by the fantasy of becoming a violent man.

Thenose · 28/03/2023 16:13

EsmaCannonball · 28/03/2023 15:23

It's evident that many men identify as women because they have a pornified fantasy of being a women. With women who identify as men we tend to focus on those girls who are reacting to internalised misogyny and lesbophobia, but it's just possible that a small minority of trans-identified females are attracted by the fantasy of becoming a violent man.

I was struck by the same thought when I watched the CCTV footage - a woman play-acting at the far edge of the spectrum of masculinity.

Thenose · 28/03/2023 16:14

"You'll see just how manly I am".

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 16:23

Clymene · 28/03/2023 13:07

They've just said on the news that Hale left a detailed manifesto and the attack was meticulously planned.

They were even dressed in camo trousers and a bandana, it looks absolutely planned.

They'd even been scoping out the location prior to yesterday.

I've just watched the police bodycam footage, and even when they're on the ground shot down by several police officers they are still trying to pick up their weapon to shoot again.

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 16:24

Bodycam footage

Kerfuffler · 28/03/2023 16:31

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 16:23

They were even dressed in camo trousers and a bandana, it looks absolutely planned.

They'd even been scoping out the location prior to yesterday.

I've just watched the police bodycam footage, and even when they're on the ground shot down by several police officers they are still trying to pick up their weapon to shoot again.

Apparently in her drawings planning the attack, she gave herself the same clothes..

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 16:38

She's basically dressed as the columbine boys.

Boiledbeetle · 28/03/2023 16:38

Twisted fuck

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 28/03/2023 17:06

What a headfuck.

I don’t really know how to process actual footage of police fatally shooting a woman, it seems so alien to me (probably a Brit thing!)

The bravery and professionalism of the officers is to be commended tho. No fannying about - complete focus on preventing more fatalities and what looks like supportive and effective team work.

Of all the role models to emulate - why the fuck would an almost 30 year old woman pick shithead classmate murdering teenage boys? And primary school-age victims?
She was too old to be killer teen, ffs!

Last night someone on here posted that the ‘gender’ of a murderer is irrelevant to the family of the victims.
That’s a massive generalism and IME it’s not really true.
The fact is, we do expect better of female people - we tell our kids that if they get separated from us in a crowd, find a friendly looking woman and tell her you need help finding your mum… when kids travel alone on flights, the airlines seat them next to female passengers.
When my friend was randomly murdered by strangers his mother found herself really struggling to get her head around the one teen girl in the gang of 6. Failing to rationally apply the same standards and expectations to all 6 really messed with his mum’s second waver sensibilities.
Her emotional response to a girl murderer was that of betrayal.

I can only imagine it’s why all of Britain seemed to hate Myra Hindley even more than they hated Ian Brady?

QueenHippolyta · 28/03/2023 17:15

Thenose · 28/03/2023 16:13

I was struck by the same thought when I watched the CCTV footage - a woman play-acting at the far edge of the spectrum of masculinity.

I knew one Butch Lesbian in my social group who really wanted to be a transman and she was a sexist, caricature of the worst masculine traits ....all the other Butches were really sweet marshmallows.

DerekFaker · 28/03/2023 17:18

There is a bizarre intenet sub culture that idolises killers like the Columbine pair. They are under the false impression that the killers were bullied until they snapped and fought back (there is no evidence they were bullied and they did have friends). Others have planned copy cat shootings but thankfully were caught before they did anything.

It's really sick and sad.

nepeta · 28/03/2023 17:45

If we had to pick only one demographic descriptor to predict who is most likely to kill another human being that demographic descriptor, in all countries would be sex. Men are by far the majority of all killers, though of course, the majority of all men are not killers at all. But a minority of men does almost all the killing.

So it would seem very important to try to understand why this is the case. Is it biology, bias in how boys and girls are brought up with more entitlement allowed for boys (and so more later rage at not getting something they assume was theirs by right)? Or is it a complicated soup of all these things and more?

Gun availability matters, for the same reason that using a lawn mower rather than nail scissors to cut grasses down in a lawn matters.

Some have argued that this means women and men are equally homicidal in nature, but because men are physically stronger, on average, they end up completing more killings. IF this is the case, then countries with easy access to guns should find the female and male perpetrator rates for homicides move towards equality.

This is not happening. The question, then, would include looking at upbringing, the expectations about men's roles and the entitlement levels each sex may be allowed to have. And also at biology, including testosterone and its effects. And how these, and other factors probably all interact in various ways. For instance, testosterone clearly doesn't cause most men to turn into killers (in wars they are essentially forced to do that), so even if the explanation is biology-based, there's more to it.

I have noticed that after each new mass slaughter event in the US there's lots of debate about mental health and access to guns, but it's extremely rare to see any attention aimed at the best single predictor of who is going to kill, i.e., certain sub-groups of men and boys. It is not on the table, at all.

Cases where "the man bites the dog", i.e., where it is a woman who commits mass murders allow some of that to enter into the debate, though even in those cases there's more focus not on how rare such cases are but on how we are all going to hell in a hand-basket if even females now kill!

The gun debate in the US might seem more familiar to you if you think of the pro-gun lobby as equally powerful to something like Stonewall, and if you think of many gun owners thinking, just like some trans activists, that the alternative to what they want would be their annihilation.

The pro-gun side in the US don't believe that the criminals will give up their guns, and so they regard any restrictions as leaving them the hapless victims of the criminals. But these arguments and beliefs are very much dependent on which US state we talk about, too, i.e., in many places all are for guns and in many places none are for guns.

So to return to the actual topic here, the possible preventable causes for this ghastly butchering (easy access to guns, untreated severe mental disorders and possible effects of cross-sex testosterone) all are important to research.

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 17:46

I know we can't link there, but a page of the manifesto has been posted over on the fruit growers site if anyone wants to go and have a look.

So much more information over there, including local news statements.

Florissante · 28/03/2023 17:59

Glad to hear the fruit growers' site is back up.

Wanderingowl · 28/03/2023 18:02

Gladiaterf · 28/03/2023 17:46

I know we can't link there, but a page of the manifesto has been posted over on the fruit growers site if anyone wants to go and have a look.

So much more information over there, including local news statements.

The real one? There was a fake one posted this morning, though even the person who posted it figured it was probably fake when they posted it.

Hawkins00 · 28/03/2023 18:12

thedancingbear · 28/03/2023 11:52

No-one. But she's right.

Four threads about the trans angle. None about (eg.) gun control.

Priorities and perspectives completely, 100% fucked up.

It's not the weapons that kill, it's the person with the weapon that kills

BlessedKali · 28/03/2023 18:17

What might i search in order to find televant link?

ArabellaScott · 28/03/2023 18:20

A fake, apparently.

QueenHippolyta · 28/03/2023 18:31

I can tell you there is strict gun control in New York City; gangs and criminals easily buy illegal guns. All the VIPs have gun permits...
We have a giant border...

ScrollingLeaves · 28/03/2023 18:34

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · Yesterday 22:43
NBC are reporting it, so I think it’s beyond speculation now. A trans-identifying female. Second school shooting by a TIF in the last few years.
AFAIK there has never been a school shooting by someone biologically female but not trans-identifying.

This Swedish study of transsexuals found that Male to Female transsexuals retain male offending patterns.

But that, on the other hand, Female to Male transsexuals do not retain female offending patterns. In other words they become more like men in their crimes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

It may be the way taking testosterone affects females.

Taking Prozac may also cause violence ( suicide/other) though who knows if this person was taking it.
www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/16/study-finds-young-people-on-antidepressants-more-prone-to-violence

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassignment.To...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

CaveMum · 28/03/2023 18:38

There was a really good episode of The Infinite Monkey Cage in 2016 (before Robin Ince outed himself as a TRA-lite) called Battle of The Sexes, where they talked about the differences between men and women. One point they raised was that men are consistently more violent than women by the same factor across all countries/societies.

It’s worth a listen:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b07lfrjs

The Infinite Monkey Cage - Series 14 - Battle of the Sexes - BBC Sounds

Brian Cox and Robin Ince and guests discuss the biological battle of the sexes.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b07lfrjs