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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NBC are quoting a police chief in Nashville...

482 replies

FusionChefGeoff · 27/03/2023 22:37

That's all I'm saying - Google is your friend and it's in the byline.

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MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:30

BlooDeBloop · 29/03/2023 11:26

@Faffertea I agree with everything you said. I have to quietly add to this conversation that this was absolutely not the position of very vocal feminists on this board a decade ago. I tried to make your very points only to be set upon. At the time, we all had to agree that there are absolutely no differences between the sexes other than external genitalia and to think so was biological essentialism gone mad.

I agree there's been a real shift.

The general agreement yesterday that male violence is linked to biology was not even tolerated as an opinion on here until very recently.

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:31

The problem cane , wheb the concept of 'gender identity' overrode the importance of biological sex.

Ultimately if someone wanta to perform 'wan gender' then get on with it. You just dont get to use sex specific services.

Faffertea · 29/03/2023 11:33

The general agreement yesterday that male violence is linked to biology was not even tolerated as an opinion on here until very recently.

Really? I’ve been here under various names for 5 or 6 years now and I remember there being discussions over that time, especially in threads around offending patterns in males who identify as transgender.

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:36

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:30

This is the point - to seperate these thing. For women to be able to pick apart what she does and doesnt need. For the Women of Zambia to stand up and say yes the men can move the goddamn water too.

For women to not have to wear high heels to the office, for women to be allowed to be pilots and drivers. For girls not to have to feel like they need a face full of make up to be a proper woman

Well yes of course.

But I find the suggestion that women in Zambia need gender explaining to them by Western women quite extraordinary.

I suspect they are far less confused than most Westerners about the difference between sex and gender.

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:38

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:30

I agree there's been a real shift.

The general agreement yesterday that male violence is linked to biology was not even tolerated as an opinion on here until very recently.

The only people who could not tolerate that idea are city dwellers who are not connected to nature. Spend one week on a farm around different animals of both sexes and then see how you feel about sex behavioural differences.

I do wonder - generally dogs are castrated early so that one of the only animals city dwellers are around, have been supressed of their natural instincts, so that female dogs and male dogs appear to be fairly similar.

Try having gander and geese, or chickens and cockerels and you see some stark differences.

Our cockerels become so arsey and cant get along that we only have one and eatthe rest.

Strange that in farming you generally keep he females and get rid of the males, yet in human societys where sex specific abortion occurs, it is the other way around.

Faffertea · 29/03/2023 11:40

@BlooDeBloop
Thats interesting. I wonder if that comes from the need in early feminist groups that to demonstrate women were just as good as men there had to be no acknowledgment of differences? That in order to be taken seriously as equals women had to prove they could be like men? That has certainly been seen in my profession (medicine). Some of the early women in medicine, and some still especially in more male dominated specialties, would be critical of younger women coming through who also wanted to be mothers, work part time etc.

I also wonder if the move towards acknowledging differences has come about through the promotion of gender identity theory. That it has forced us to look at and say why men can’t be women just because they say so and what it is that all women have in common.

Personally I think as feminists we need to celebrate the things that make us women, that only we can do and show we don’t have to follow the patriarchal order as we have before.

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:40

Faffertea · 29/03/2023 11:33

The general agreement yesterday that male violence is linked to biology was not even tolerated as an opinion on here until very recently.

Really? I’ve been here under various names for 5 or 6 years now and I remember there being discussions over that time, especially in threads around offending patterns in males who identify as transgender.

Definitely.

I've been seriously attacked many times. And quite recently even. I think it depends on the tone of the thread tbh and the direction it takes and how isolated you get.

Different threads go very different ways.

But see the 'outrage' on this thread to my earlier posts about risk taking, bravery, and men. This thread could have easily continued in ongoing outrage.

It happens.

Instead I think we've had an interesting discussion where we've identified differences and things in common.

That doesn't always happen.

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:43

By 'seriously attacked' I mean criticised by most on threads, I feel may have overstated my experience!

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:43

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:36

Well yes of course.

But I find the suggestion that women in Zambia need gender explaining to them by Western women quite extraordinary.

I suspect they are far less confused than most Westerners about the difference between sex and gender.

I was in my early twenties when I went there, i didn't have the maturity to think about whether Zambian girls needed me to go there and try to teach them anything. I thought I was just being helpful. Now I do wonder what was the correct thing to do. Was it fair for me to turn up and try to change a culture? Thats pretty ugly.

On the other hand, why don't those women deserve to be empowered? Why don't they deserve to be encouraged to stand up to the patriarchy? They are no different from me, and I don't want to have to do 90% of the domestic chores whilst the men and boys just sit around hanging out with each other.

And actually i think it was enlightening for the girls. They has grown up being told that males dont carry the water, I think they enjoyed questioning this.

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 11:48

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:43

I was in my early twenties when I went there, i didn't have the maturity to think about whether Zambian girls needed me to go there and try to teach them anything. I thought I was just being helpful. Now I do wonder what was the correct thing to do. Was it fair for me to turn up and try to change a culture? Thats pretty ugly.

On the other hand, why don't those women deserve to be empowered? Why don't they deserve to be encouraged to stand up to the patriarchy? They are no different from me, and I don't want to have to do 90% of the domestic chores whilst the men and boys just sit around hanging out with each other.

And actually i think it was enlightening for the girls. They has grown up being told that males dont carry the water, I think they enjoyed questioning this.

It's interesting to reflect on it, I'm sure there were positives in your work.

And I think women should be supporting women across the world who are being horribly oppressed. But it does involve some hard judgement calls.

I've appreciated discussing this with you today @BlessedKali and totally see your intention is just to support women.

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 11:51

I have also enjoyed the discussion, sister xxx

monsteramunch · 29/03/2023 12:04

@MalagaNights

The general agreement yesterday that male violence is linked to biology was not even tolerated as an opinion on here until very recently.

Eh? I've seen this discussed many times on here over the years, especially in the last couple.

BadNomad · 29/03/2023 12:22

You have to remember that correlation does not prove causation. Saying "males have more testosterone than females, and males are statistically more violent than females, therefore testosterone causes violence" is incorrect.

Testosterone does not cause violence. What testosterone actually does is assist violent people to be violent because higher/unbalanced levels of testosterone causes agitation and irritation (just ask women with PCOS!).
But what is it that actually makes some people resort to violence when agitated and irritated? Culture, society, upbringing, entitlement, arrogance, mental health issues, gender expectation (e.g. you are the man, protect and defend the wimmin and childer!) etc. The same reasons that make people with normal levels of testosterone be violent and abusive. Many of the same reasons the ones who beat up their wives at home, manage not to beat up their bosses at work.

Women are less likely to be violent because they are raised to be less violent and expected to be less violent, and because they are generally weaker there is little benefit in being violent. But there are plenty who are violent, who have perfectly normal levels of hormones, who are also selective in who they attack and abuse.

Testosterone does cause changes in mood for sure, but resorting to violence in response to that is not caused by testosterone.

PorcelinaV · 29/03/2023 12:41

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 10:31

You've redefined gender as only the socially constructed behaviours.

Which is fine (but I haven't seen that before) but then you have to prove which behaviours are purely socially constructed, and most are probably a combination to varying degrees.

Also when you start ascribing some behaviours to pure biology it becomes narrow and prescriptive and leads to...so if you are an aggressive female you are male etc. At least logically.

Behaviour has to be viewed separately from sex and this is what I thought gender was: Behaviours and roles associated with sex.
Without a causal labelling.

It seems some definitions may tie it to "social construct" but I think that's confusing. As you say, how do you know what is pure social construct?

An OED definition is:

Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather than biological ones; the collective attributes or traits associated with a particular sex, or determined as a result of one's sex. Also: a (male or female) group characterized in this way.

Wiccan · 29/03/2023 13:14

ScrollingLeaves · 28/03/2023 22:00

nepeta
For instance, testosterone clearly doesn't cause most men to turn into killers (in wars they are essentially forced to do that), so even if the explanation is biology-based, there's more to it.

Testosterone may well have a very different effect in women than in men. After all it is being introduced into an entirely different physiology.

Helena the detransitioner mentioned the horribly random irritable feelings she had when taking it. I think she said that here.
https://lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?s=r

Wow that really was an enlightening read . This is so awful I cannot believe what young kids are going through and that practitioners are encouraging this . God only knows what the fall out from this is going to be or is already happening. 😞

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 29/03/2023 13:59

monsteramunch · 29/03/2023 09:46

@MalagaNights

You think women get sociology lessons before they wear makeup??

If a woman grew up in isolation untouched by society, do you think she would ever wear make up?

It’s interesting to expand this concept of clothes too.

What would we wear if we started over?

Presumably at least at first it would be based on weather/environment, comfort & convenience.

What do the small number of remaining isolated tribes wear? I seem to recall a lot more toplessness because it’s just easier to feed a baby if you aren’t wearing three layers of clothing with a fiddly little clip mechanism on your nursing bra (yet god forbid a female nipple show up in a mum and baby pic on Instagram).

Personally, I think it’s madness not to accept that some of the behavioural differences between women and men are directly connected to our biology.

On top of that there exists a layer of sex stereotypes that originated from the biological differences. Some of these are quite benign (and dare I say it, sometimes fun to play around with!) but others have been used to oppress women, to endanger working class men and have been escalated and escalated to the point where they are actively harmful to not just women and girls but men and boys too.

Sex based behaviours are like other sex traits - they are ‘on average’. On average, men are taller than women. On average, men are stronger than women. That doesn’t mean there aren’t short men and strong women.

Re: risk taking - I think previous posters are confusing a willingness to take risks with bravery - they are two separate things than can sometimes combine. The police officers in the Nashville school exhibited both.

Women can be extremely brave tho, to the point where they achieve extraordinary things, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t also (on average!) less inclined to take risks and thus less likely to apply for jobs that include include daily risk to life.

Boys, on average, take more physical risks than girls do. You can see this in play from a very young age and it becomes even more obvious at puberty.
Boys being more prone to risk taking doesn’t make them intrinsically more valuable than girls, in some circumstances it’s a negative trait, driven by impulsivity and short term thinking rather than noble protection.

Risk taking often results in boys and young men landing on the wrong side of the law or causing immense physical damage to themselves. Teenage boys and young men are far more likely to become disabled through stupid shit like cliff jumping or reckless driving.

Luckily it seems to be a bit of a peak, drop, mellow out situation with risk taking behaviours going up at puberty, peaking by the time the frontal cortex finishes developing and then it drops off a bit when long term thinking kicks in.

if (on average) a boy’s biological impulses can make him take stupid risks, then surely good male socialisation (by which I mean, useful to society and rewarding to the individual) should be focussed on lessening the stupidity while praising the fearlessness, encouraging social responsibility and rewarding bravery and selflessness (eg by paying first responders more!)
The women and girls who are outliers in the risk taking stakes should also be praised and rewarded when their inclinations are harnessed for the greater good (whereas traditional female socialisation would discourage risk taking and punish girls who exhibited it) and boys who are naturally inclined towards being cautious shouldn’t be shamed for their lack of risk taking behaviours, but encouraged in the directions that suit the traits they do have (whereas traditional male socialisation would peer pressure them into doing stupid shit).

Women aren’t obliged to have babies anymore and that’s a good thing, women are now encouraged to develop their intellect through the same institutions that were once the preserve of men) also a good thing.

Nonetheless, the fact remains that the (average!) traits of the female body have evolved around the baby making aspect.
It’s why we have more body fat, it’s why we grow breasts.
Doesn’t it make sense that it’s also why we are (on average!) less inclined to drive recklessly, start fights in pubs and jump off cliffs for shits and giggles?

We’ve got all sorts of scientific knowledge now but when humans evolved a heterosexually active female human of fertile age would spend half of every month not knowing whether she’s pregnant or not.

Doesn’t it make sense that at certain points in the menstrual cycle we’d be more or less inclined towards risk taking behaviours? That our strength or activity levels might vary depending on what our cycle is doing? That our agreeableness might vary too? Most of us are well aware that we can be irritable when premenstrual but perhaps not that the opposite can happen before ovulation?
This is the sort of science that is being explored with female athletes, how to make the best of their cycle in terms of training and competition (and it’s something males who say they are women will never have to think about in their training and completion schedules 😬).

A lot of women haven’t been prevented from independently recognising their own patterns due to the near-ubiquitous use of hormonal contraceptives (which work either by mimicking hormonal levels in early pregnancy (and fighting against our natural hormones to keep us there for extended periods, sometimes for years at a time eg mirena) or by arresting ovulation and creating a synthetic version of a cycle over the top of what’s left of our natural one. This resembles a cycle but anything man made is obviously going to be cruder (eg ‘withdrawal bleeds’ instead of periods on the combined pill). Of course, for some women, especially those who have non-typical hormonal cycles the cruder, more simplistic version of a cycle can give welcome relief.

Don’t get me wrong, I think contraceptive tech has been amazing in terms of women’s Lib, but it’s at the cost of a couple of generations of women not really knowing what their baseline is and in hindsight, it’s not really a surprise that fucking about with a woman’s cycle can effect her mental health (both positively and negatively).

I quit hormonal contraceptives for good circa 2003 when I got a mirena coil and promptly put on three stone, started crying uncontrollably and clumps of my hair fell out (male GP refused to believe me and I had to beg to have it taken out). I switched to copper coil and as soon as period tracking on smart phones became a thing I started using them, albeit in a very lackadaisical sort of way.
I’ve now got about 14 years of no-exogenous-hormones cycle data, and can tell you categorically that there are two days a month where I am an extremely nice version of myself (follicular phase right before ovulation) and three days a month when I can move a wardrobe upstairs single handedly (luteal phase as progestogen peaks). There are two days a month where my kids know not to ask me anything about anything because they’ll get an immediate no (when both oestrogen and progesterone are lowest so last two days of cycle).

What women most likely naturally recognised about themselves for centuries (even without fancy words to describe it) and then had interrupted with the advent of hormonal contraceptives is being replaced with scientific papers, but the papers are dense, hard to connect with real-life experiences and are no doubt at least a bit tainted by the ever present spectre of Big Pharma.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4113343/

The GenderBorg’s influence on language and priorities in endocrinological and OBGYNAE departments, as well as their influence on journalistic integrity (even at scientific periodicals) makes it even less likely that women (the cunty kind) will be able to access useful, relevant, digestible material that allows for properly informed consent re: contraceptive choices.

TLDR (still long, sorry/not sorry) our biology, including our hormones definitely influence our abilities and behaviours and pretending it’s all socialisation prevents women from understanding ourselves properly.

Older women become stubborn, argumentative ‘Karen’ type figures because the waning of our agreeable hormone levels, coupled with the reduced impetus for finding a heterosexual mate post the fertile years makes us less likely to give a shit what men think. I think this is fucking great!

Our biology is probably a big reason why so many younger women are BeeeeKinders to the GenderBorg (seeking male approval, fawning instead of fighting or flighting) and a contributing factor to the phenomenon of late-blooming lesbians - once the mammalian instinct to make and raise a new human is sated we are more able to freely look at what else we might want in order to live a happy and fulfilled life (socialised compulsory heterosexuality aka ‘comphet’ is likely a factor too, but one that is surely waning in most western societies?).

We know that giving males synthesised female hormones changes their behaviours (depot provera contraceptive injections have been used to chemically castrate sex offenders, and everyone knows that poor Alan Turing was forced to take estrogen as a punishment for homosexuality).
What it doesn’t do is change them into females. They are still males, males with artificially altered hormones that affect some aspects of their behaviour (and it doesn’t just affect libido, which is why there are some serious ethical dilemmas around using hormones for this purpose, and the only thing that justifies it is prevention of harm to children).

Men have peaks and troughs in terms of lifespan hormone production but once puberty is done the other changes are less pronounced than the changes women experience, we have monthly cycles and (optional!) pregnancies and postpartum phases, as well as an end to the fertile stage and the menopause years.

The maiden/mother/crone aspect of our lives keeps us divided by making us fear turning into our mothers (but now I am awfully like my mother I can’t imagine what I was so afraid of? My mum was ace).

Which reminds me, I really need to buy Victoria Smith’s Hags.

Basically, anyone who thinks that acknowledging the connections between female biology and female behaviour is problematic or anti feminist needs to examine their own internalised misogyny.

Women are different (in SOME aspects) to men.
That doesn’t mean women are lesser than men.
Acknowledging difference (and even celebrating some bits of it) doesn’t mean women have to stay home and cook and clean and pop out babies on command.
(I can’t cook for toffee).

It does mean that when a heterosexual couple have a baby the woman is (on average!) far better at responding to the infant’s needs.
Doesn’t mean she can’t go back to work after minimum maternity leave if she wants to.
Does mean she shouldn’t be forced back to work immediately, even if she physical recovers from the birth within a day or two.

Doesn’t mean a separated dad should be prevented from having visitation time with a new baby.

Does mean he can’t insist on overnights.

We need to acknowledge the (average!) differences in order for women to obtain and maintain the legal and societal protections we need to live safe, fulfilled, happy lives.

We also need legal and societal protections that acknowledgment where we DON’T differ much at all (ie academic achievement) in order to prevent shithead men and their fawning female sidekicks using the differences as an excuse to oppress and control.

Denying biological differences in (average!) physicality just results in men getting sponsored by tampax and winning at women’s sports.
Denying biological differences in (average!) behaviours makes it really hard to justify female only spaces on the grounds of safety, dignity and privacy.
Women don’t tend to stick their heads/camera phones under cubicle partitions to perve on unsuspecting occupants.
Most men don’t either, but there are enough who do to not want any of them in the ladies.

OldCrone · 29/03/2023 14:38

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 10:29

This is where is starts to make less sense for me -

There are two types of gendered behaviour. Those with a biological root and those which are totally socially constructed.

ok so now we have 'biology gender' and 'gender gender' ?

Gender needs a distinct definiton or it becoems a pointless word.

Then if we have gender behaviour, what exactly is that describing, and how is it different from sexed behaviour

Then we break it down to - what is the dofference between s'sex' and 'gender'.

And this is where I make my clear distinction - sex is due to biology, gender is related to social expectations. In this sense we have a vlear meaning for sexed behaviour and gendered behaviour.

This is how gender becomes a social construct, because there could arguabley be a society where men wear dresses and high heels, women wear trousers and walk with a swagger, where women talk loudly and men are. Manly if they giggle lots.

Or you could have the total opposite.

But you never have the oposite of men giving birth and women getting erections.

You say it doesn't make sense, but what do you think violence is? Is it a male behaviour (due to sex)? If so, then all males would be violent and all females not. Or all males would be more violent than all females. We know this isn't the case. So it's not a sex difference.

The difference is also seen in animals, as you have mentioned on this thread, so it can't be due to socialisation alone. So it's not a gender difference either.

It makes sense to me that some differences in behaviour between the sexes are due to physical differences such as hormones, but they can't be described as 'sex differences' because they are not absolute since they can be altered by altering hormone levels and/or through socialisation. So how should we describe them?

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2023 16:08

MalagaNights · Today 10:47
There are many interesting studies on how context effects the manifestation of increased testosterone.

Violence is one way increased testosterone can manifest but it's also linked to risk taking, status, competition, physical action, all which can be channelled to be exhibited in socially acceptable or advantageous ways.

That is interesting. Do any of the studies you have read include studies on the effects of testosterone on women (apart from the Swedish study which showed crime rates in women went up for transsexual females)?

ScrollingLeaves · 29/03/2023 16:19

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · Today 13:59
Re: all the common sense you wrote in that post ✨✨✨✨👏

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 16:28

OldCrone · 29/03/2023 14:38

You say it doesn't make sense, but what do you think violence is? Is it a male behaviour (due to sex)? If so, then all males would be violent and all females not. Or all males would be more violent than all females. We know this isn't the case. So it's not a sex difference.

The difference is also seen in animals, as you have mentioned on this thread, so it can't be due to socialisation alone. So it's not a gender difference either.

It makes sense to me that some differences in behaviour between the sexes are due to physical differences such as hormones, but they can't be described as 'sex differences' because they are not absolute since they can be altered by altering hormone levels and/or through socialisation. So how should we describe them?

I think we should seperate violence and aggression because that has also become conflated.

Im quite sure testosterone is directly linked to aggressive potential.

Higher testosterone males have more capacity for aggression? Certainly the case for animals.

We can also see a clear distinction between male and female crimes. 98-99% of aggressive crimes are perpetrated by men.

But of course not all men.

Males have more testosterone, therefore males have an increased propensity for aggression. We know this is the case.

I suppose violence is actually different from aggression, maybe violence is untamed aggression. Maybe violenxe is the result of aggression and bad socialisation.

But as I say - I feel both aggression/violence are related to testosterone AND social conditioning. nature and nurture.

---- If testosterone is a male associated hormone, then behaviours linked with testosterone can surely be linked to being male. Just because a female might take synthetic testosterone, does not change this. Similiarly women are the sec that grow breasts and just because a man might take synthetic oestrogen and grow small breasts, I dont think we should now define men as also growing breats.

Ultimately my point is, and has always been - sex is biology, gender is social. Sex and gender.

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 16:38

Sex roles & gender roles / sex stereotypes & gender stereotypes :

Sex roles - breastfeeding, motherhood, fatherhood.

Gender roles - water carrier, dish cleaner, bread maker

----
Sex stereotype - women are more compassionate, women are multi-taskers. Men are more aggressive.

Gender stereotype - boys like blue and girls like pink. Boys have short hair and girls have long hair

---

For the posters who consider that gender covers both socialization and biology, how would you be able to differentiate between gender stereotypes & sex sterotype, gender role & sex role?

Or are you suggesting sex and gender are the same thing?

CryptoFascistMadameCholet · 29/03/2023 16:50

Higher testosterone males have more capacity for aggression? Certainly the case for animals.

Some dogs become more aggressive post-castration.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/canine-corner/201805/neutering-causes-behavior-problems-in-male-dogs?amp

(We still need to neuter dogs for lots of other reasons but it’s not a solution for aggressive behaviours)

I suspect we see something similar occurring in some human males who ‘transition’ but I doubt anyone will ever have the balls (pun intended) to study it!

Neutering Causes Behavior Problems in Male Dogs

Neutered male dogs are more likely to show aggression and fear-related behavior.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/canine-corner/201805/neutering-causes-behavior-problems-in-male-dogs?amp

nepeta · 29/03/2023 17:07

'Gender' now means at least three different concepts, as Stock discusses in her book, so talking about it without knowing which of those the other speakers mean can get impossibly confusing.

The traditional way for feminism to view gender is as the way societies 'do' sex, the rules, roles, and stereotypes societies associate with female and male people. It's very clear, by just thinking about what the gender norms for men and women are in, say, Iceland as compared to Afghanistan that there is a considerable socially structured aspect to gender roles, norms and stereotypes.

That these may have a biological basis is correct, though in some cases the biological basis is more direct and in other cases it is quite indirect and affects matters in a more distant sense (say, when lower ranked people are expected to behave in more submissive ways and women are lower ranked people but also some men).

What is pretty clear to me is that the social effect is to exaggerate and widen differences which might or might not have a biological basis. (It's hard to separate the two in research given that we can't bring up some children outside societies altogether to see what would happen and given that what used to be called nature and nurture are now understood to interact in very complicated ways so that sometimes the environment affects which genes are turned on etc.)

To see how those differences end up exaggerated, consider that the average female and male bodies do look different, but then note how many societies (not all) wish to accentuate those differences even more so that the pressure for women and girls is to diet, to be tiny, to be more curvaceous and for women and girls it is to do body-building, to be even bigger-looking and more muscular.

Another example of this is how we have a field of research which looks into sex differences and gender differences, but no field which looks into sex similarities or gender similarities. The file-drawer effect means that studies which find no sex differences in something are much less likely to be published than those which do find differences, and if the former get published the absence of sex differences is de-emphasised and relegated to the appendices.

My own view is that gender, in the sense of norms, rules and stereotypes is sometimes based on biological differences, but that it is far more common for people to believe that only biological differences matter, even though we can mine history to see similar errors being made in the past and then disproved (say, the entry of women in large numbers to jobs which were previously assumed inherently unsuitable for female people).

A trivial example of this kind of thing comes from studies of speed-dating. The evolutionary psychology argument is that women are choosier at picking their partners for evolutionary reasons (women make a much bigger bodily investment in reproduction so being picky is more important for women) and some have used speed-dating to show that this still happens.

But other studies showed that women become far less choosy when the rules are changed so that it is the women, not the men, who pick which man to chat with next. Here it is the gendered expectations in a society which seemed to cause the findings, not innate biological differences as such.

Many of us would not have expected that finding, and this is why I find it very important to always question assertions about something being biologically innate.

Also worth noting that it's not the case that women would inherently be less aggressive than men if we define aggression to include verbal aggression. That men are more likely to be physically aggressive is also partly due to proximal effects, i.e., that women, on average, are less likely to be the winners i a physical fight against men.

TLDR:

Biological differences exist, but social gender norms, roles and stereotypes exaggerate them and those we can affect. That something may have a biological basis does not necessarily mean that we cannot change the resulting behaviour.

Also, we don't really understand fully how and when it is the environment (including culture) which affects genes being activated, when it is the genes which alone affect the final observed differences, and when it is all those things (and others) working together.

MalagaNights · 29/03/2023 17:36

BlessedKali · 29/03/2023 16:38

Sex roles & gender roles / sex stereotypes & gender stereotypes :

Sex roles - breastfeeding, motherhood, fatherhood.

Gender roles - water carrier, dish cleaner, bread maker

----
Sex stereotype - women are more compassionate, women are multi-taskers. Men are more aggressive.

Gender stereotype - boys like blue and girls like pink. Boys have short hair and girls have long hair

---

For the posters who consider that gender covers both socialization and biology, how would you be able to differentiate between gender stereotypes & sex sterotype, gender role & sex role?

Or are you suggesting sex and gender are the same thing?

Becoming a mother or a father is a sex role as you have to have the corresponding biology to achieve it but how you enact the role is a gendered expectation probably based on a mixture of biology (higher testosterone means men engage boys in more physical play) and cultural (father's expect boys to be physical and encourage it.)

So are roles around fatherhood and motherhood sex based or cultural? Obviously both.
To differing degrees depending on particular role expectations. E.g. women staying at home with infants very linked to biology, father's spending hours cycling - cultural (what is that all about??)

But gender roles and stereotypes are rarely solely biology or social construct. Most cultural expectations have evolved from biological reality in some way, however detached and unhelpful they now become.

Which is why I find some feminists continued insistence gender is a social construct so frustratingly limiting.

We're much better served dealing with reality and what we do about that than trying to insist the world can be just how we think it should be if we just socialise everyone correctly.
Think how oppressive you have to become to force that from the top down.

We're not blank slates.

OldCrone · 29/03/2023 18:41

Sex stereotype - women are more compassionate, women are multi-taskers. Men are more aggressive.

Can you provide any evidence (research) to back up women being compassionate and multi-taskers? Surely those are gender stereotypes. Is there any evidence of a biological sex-differentiated basis for either of these? I'm firmly convinced that women being good at multi-tasking is a myth, being a woman who is totally incapable of this.

Men being more aggressive (due to testosterone) I can't argue with - crime statistics show this. This is a biological difference.