Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

To be fair - I don't think validation is the real issue for all transwomen. But it gets conveniently blurred in with safety

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

But it's not really about safety; young boys use the men's toilets all the time without incident. Unless you suggesting adult transwomen are more vulnerable than them?

I'm afraid that yes, if you read the explanations and justifications from TW themselves, it is almost entirely about validation.

This is why there cannot be third spaces with some women still permitted a space of their own where males cannot go; this meeting of women's needs is entirely lost behind the entirely male feelings of women 'gatekeeping' a bit of womanhood that males cannot attain. The transition is not total.

There are many, many women who claim that they would happily use third spaces, do not care who they undress in front of, who they pee next to. Those women however will not do.

I'm afraid that yes, if you read the explanations and justifications from TW themselves, it isalmost entirely about validation.

Hm, is that all TW in real life, or just the noisy ones who write stuff? Not all TW believe TWAW.

Miranda Yardley in particular I think has written about this. His articles are always well worth reading, but there's plenty of others from TW with varying perspectives.

I like Miranda. I appreciate that his GC activism is squarely aimed at his fellow transitioned males, not at women.

Also, being the first ever person prosecuted for a transgender hate crime when you yourself are a post operative transsexual and your accuser is non-trans trans activist must’ve been a massive headfuck.

Thankfully the judge thought it as stupid as we all did, but it must’ve been horrible to have it hanging over you all that time.

prosecuted for a transgender hate crime when you yourself are a post operative transsexual and your accuser is non-trans trans activist

WTAF?!?!?!? I didnt know anything at all about Miranda Yardley. Just did a quick google. Marvellous!

One thing about all this.. the truth does seem to lurk in unexpected places, from the Daily Mail to the Morning Star. Maybe that's just what happens when the mainstream prefers to shut its eyes? It's like the Quibbler all over again, isn't it?

Unless you suggesting adult transwomen are more vulnerable than them?

Uh.. depends how they're dressed and who else is in there, surely? I don't want to go down a more-vulnerable-than-thou rabbithole and maybe I am very out of date, but I didn't think men dressed as women were safe in all men's spaces? Unless the world has improved a lot while I wasn't looking, pissed aggressive angry blokes with issues around sexuality and effeminacy are still a thing. I know transwomen's safety is not women's problem to solve but a real problem. Made worse now because TWAW demanding access to all areas means more women are getting suspicious too.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

I don't want to go down a more-vulnerable-than-thou rabbithole

Society has drawn a line regarding safety, and that line means that young boys are considered by society to be safe in a men's toilet, otherwise there would be third spaces for children and young adults.

It's not a question of a rabbit hole of relativity, it's about absolute risk.

There is no circumstance where an adult is more vulnerable physically than a young boy.

I know transwomen's safety is not women's problem to solve but a real problem.

Is it? What is the evidence for this, particularly in male toilets? There are NO recorded instances of assault on TW in male toilets and believe me I have looked and looked.

Unless the world has improved a lot while I wasn't looking, pissed aggressive angry blokes with issues around sexuality and effeminacy are still a thing.

Effeminate gay men would fall into this category do you think they should be provided with the safety of the women's toilets too? Or do you think the issue, if there is one, of males being unsafe in male spaces whatever their sexuality or however they identify should be addressed?

Made worse now because TWAW demanding access to all areas means more women are getting suspicious too.

And women are a threat are they?

but I didn't think men dressed as women were safe in all men's spaces

I don't care.
not my problem
not women's problem

Men can take it up with men.

This

My thoughts exactly Boiled. My priority and care is for women and girls, not men however they identify, whatever they are wearing, whatever chemical or surgical alterations they have or have not made to their bodies. If men have a problem with male spaces then it's up to them to find a solution - one that does not involve accessing women's spaces.

I don't think there's any need to be so dismissive. If one group of people aren't safe then that's a problem for society. But the solution isn't too put a different group of people (women) at risk instead - it's to advocate for a third space or, more realistically, the opening up of (generally underused) disabled toilets or changing rooms to be 'accessible' or 'universal' rather than 'disabled only'.

I would agree with some sort of third space but, you know what, TW reject it out of hand. They won't work with us so they will just have to work it out between them.

it's to advocate for a third space

Women, and indeed some TW, have advocated for this and guess what the vocal TRAs and their submissive, craven allies reject this out of hand. Why would that be do you think, couldn't possibly be that it is not the space that matters but the people in that space and the sign on the door that are required for their validation could it?

And no, disabled spaces are not the fall back option either, those spaces were hard fought for by disabled people, very hard fought for, disabled people NEED them it is not just some airy fairy want. Leave disabled people's facilities alone.

Once again, there is NO evidence that TW are unsafe in male spaces, none.

They won't work with us so they will just have to work it out between them.

I agree. Women have been trying to be reasonable and negotiate for years for answers that work for all. Now we've hit the 'surrender women's rights or we'll scream at and hurt people' stage? That door's closed.

I don't think there's any need to be so dismissive

Considering the utter contempt with which TRAs and their allies treat women being dismissive is a very minor reaction.

Any who would you allow into the third spaces given that the TW males are not the only more vulnerable men?

So clearly it's fine to be dismissive of disabled people's needs?

Accessible toilets are for people with disabilities. Not men with identity issues. Not a third space.
No.

Their answer always seems to be to take something from someone else doesn't it?

Yep,let them sort it out among themselves.

What does that mean in a practical sense? Where I am, many public toilets are unisex which I absolutely hate, because often they're a mess. What will be required? A men's, women's, trans men's, trans women's and a disabled toilet? Is that what you're proposing? I'd say all that will happen is all will end up being unisex which is what many businesses are already doing, which makes sense from a cost and logistics point. So long term we'll all lose.
In fact think one step further, if it's not fair on women, why should disabled women have to share with men?
Just throwing this out there to think about.

Third spaces are generally (or at least should be) completely private. So you wouldn't have to figure out who are the vulnerable or non-dangerous trans people as they wouldn't be at risk or posing a risk to anyone. They should be open to everyone who feels the need for self contained larger toilets or changing rooms for any reason, whether that's disability, being trans or anything else (eg having small children with you) I really don't think this would have a major impact on disabled people's access, as these facilities are generally underused.

The OP was asking whether there is a third way, a compromise. Yes some trans activists don't want this third way, but let's not be equally hard-line and find excuses to dismiss it ourselves.

don't you dare even think you can give up hard fought for woefully inadequate provision of disabled toilets to men and women who have toilet provision already. It's not the fault of the disabled toilet users that perfectly fit and healthy individuals want to be validated in their new gender and use other people's toilets.

why should I put men's rights and feelings above women's? Above disabled people's?

Why?

where Are the statistics that proves they are unsafe?

if men are violent to men that's not societies problem. That's men's problem. Nothing to do with women that one.

And finally, dismissive. After the sign below too fucking right I'm dismissive.

Let's also not pretend that reasons are excuses. We will speed a vast number of third space provision to cater for everyone who'd rather have single space provision. Its not practical.