Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

Sorry, sent too early. We'd also need to think about how to manage all the old places where there's no room for third spaces.

I don't think that's the case. I think most people are perfectly happy in single sex communal changing rooms or toilet blocks. And if they're not, then why shouldn't they have the privacy they seek?

Or are you just determined to prove wrong this who've said on this thread that the only blocks to compromise are radical trans activists and demonstrate j that there is just as hardline an attitude on both sides?

Yes this needs thinking about. It might not be easy it possible everywhere. But doesn't mean we can't think about it.

Look what's happened over the last few years while women were busy trying to compromise...we got shat on from a height. The time for compromise is over.

Personally I'm done. Women only in women spaces.

There was a time when i was happy to help the fight for third spaces, but that's not good enough. Nothing is ever bloody good enough.

So I'm withdrawing any previous willingness to help. They can sort their own toilets out. But they can get out of mine. And as I'm also disabled and so have to use the disabled ones on occasions when I'm really ill, that includes the disabled ones.

Do you have data to prove that most people would choose large communal spaces over small contained ones? If not, you'd have too be daft not to foresee massive issues with this. Where do u think the tw will expect to go when there are massive long queues in the single spaces? Do you think they'll respect the disabled and women's spaces? Of course not. If they were the sort to respect spaces, we'd not be in this mess in the first place. It's silly to pretend that we have the money and space for third spaces to really work. Quite apart from the fact that TW don't like it when people refuse to treat them like real women.

Total capitulation is the only 'compromise' they're happy with.

Fuck that.

Sure. I've thought about it. That's why I don't think it will work.

You've thought about the practicalities in every single office, pub, shop etc in the world have you, and concluded that it's never possible to create a third space to accommodate people who don't feel comfortable using either the men's or women's toilets?

Can you not see how this kind of hardline attitude alienates people?

Who does it alienate?. We have women's toilets men's toilets and disabled toilets.

Everyone is provided for.

If someone is still not happy why is that anyone else's problem to sort. They have correct provision they just don't want to use it.

If it upsets them that much they can come up with solutions, they can lobby and campaign. But they can do it without any assistance from me.

Not hard data but personal experience really - I've often seen people queueing for the single sex toilets and leaving the disabled one empty - I assume they'd use it if they had a strong preference to do so. At my gym there are some private cubicles that are usually free but few people bother with them, they just change in the communal areas.

I don't know what you mean by would they "respect" the disabled people's space - they wouldn't be using it at the same time. I don't think they'd destroy it or pee all over the floor if that's what you mean?

You're right that some trans women would object to being asked to use a third space because they don't want to be treated differently from actual women. But a lot really aren't like that and would gladly do so (and indeed do already do so often)

God you're nasty aren't you?

I'm leaving this thread now.

OP - I guess you got your answer as to why it's so hard to find a middle ground that accommodates both the needs of trans people and women. There are bigoted people on both sides who are utterly unwilling to contemplate the needs of the other group and indeed would fight hard not to accept them.

What's nasty about saying that everyone is provided for?

It's the truth.

Trans women, being men, already have toilets. Especially designed for their penises. They don't need sanitary facilities. And can pee standing up in urinals.

This has been the case for decades.

Meh! I'll accept your condemnation. It will have zero effect on my decisions, but if it makes you feel better to get upset at someone stating fact then that's your cross to bear I suppose.

heavens some people aren't really cut out for the cut and thrust of Mumsnet are they?

<quietly closes door behind @Fireyflies >

Do they realise that telling a narcissist they are nasty is such an incredible compliment?

I'm quite emotional!

Its like when a guy called me a cunt on one thread.

I felt validated!

I do not see what is "nasty" or " bigoted" about someone setting out their boundaries clearly.
And stating the truth.

Are we pretending that flashers and other pervs are 'identifying as trans' so that they can access women in spaces where we are vulnerable? If a transwoman can go into a space, that means any man can go into that space. There is no way of distinguishing which man is a transwoman any more than there is of distinguishing which man is a rapist. They all look the same.

for 'are' read 'aren't'

I will say, as I have said on many other recent threads (and may have done so already on this thread, I've lost track) to those who say 'what about third spaces?', please Google 'mumsnet third spaces' and see just how often they have been suggested and discussed on here and dismissed out of hand as 'transphobic and othering' by TRA's. I'll give you a hint - many, many times. It's become obvious that there is no compromise - total capitulation is the only acceptable outcome.

So, it's hardly surprising that women, having offered solutions and tried to be accommodating and been called nasty names for doing so, then start to get a bit 'hardline' and don't go along with the female socialisation of be kind.

It's like pronouns. I used to be a lot less 'hardline' about using people's chosen pronouns. Just being polite, right? And then I was told that I had to announce my pronouns and called a bigot if I didn't want to. Then I was told that I had to refer to myself as 'cis' and if I pointed out the illogicacy of being forced to refer to myself by a made up term designating me as a sub set of of my own sex class, then I was a hideous bigot. It gets to a point where you think 'no. I'm not playing this game'.

I used to the design meetings at work whilst the client whittled down really good toilet provision to the bare minimum. I had sometimes rather heated discussions over the law concerning the fact that yes they did have to have those bloody annoying disabled toilets and parking spaces (they need so much floor space it's always a cost issue).

New building designs start out with the best standard on everything. unless you are actually building a top spec in everything building during design meeting after design meeting anything that can be reduced, removed, downgraded in specification etc is.

This carries on throughout the building phase as well as money gets tighter and tighter.

Toilets always get it in the neck.

The smallest floor space. The least amount of laminate board height. The biggest gap you can get around doors. When you're installing over 100 cubicles does every inch off the bottom adds up!

In existing buildings you can circumvent the laws regarding toilet provision even more.

So most building owners don't actually want to mess around with their floor plans just to stick in an extra special toilet in for john who is now Jane and suddenly feels unsafe using the toilets with then men he's been standing at the urinals with for a decade.

Some people have no Fucking clue

It's silly to pretend that we have the money and space for third spaces to really work.

Just as a matter of interest, yes, this could be easily achieved and the blueprint is already there, because these were the exact same arguments against accessible disabled toilets.

It was achieved through national government and local government setting aside money for grants so that it was affordable, all new builds had to have met this criteria for plans to be approved, people from local authorities took on the brief to go out to sites, work through the 'no no we can't' conversations and get to the 'yes, this is going to happen, however this is how you apply for the grant', with reasonable adjustments made as to number of users, size of site, building restrictions etc. It took about five years to achieve, it could be easily done again, and the disabled lobby did not have many extremely rich government funded charities selling evangelical zeal and rainbows.

If the TQ+ lobby wanted this, it could have been done and dusted by now.

It still, even now, blows my mind that women who state that trans women can sort out their own issues with men, its nothing to do with us women, are called nasty.

Just... what?

The internalised misogyny is astounding- any woman who won't put herself and her needs last behind the wants of males (any males) is a big old meany.

Well fuck that. In the ear.

How many men are using their limited free time sitting around earnestly discussing amongst themselves how they can improve the lot of random women (be that via toilet provision or anything else)? I'm not saying none do, but I bet it's not many. And they aren't being criticised for not doing it. Society allows, no, expects men to be selfish. Women are vilified for doing the same.