Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

From what I've seen it's because one side took such a black position (TWAW) and all that entailed (see your first point) that the only way to really create an effective fight back is to go equally extreme in the opposite direction.

I feel like you - but also understand the above and so am harsher on a lot of things as that's the force we are dealing with so feel I have to push back with equal force to stand a chance.

Does that make sense!?

You're views are horribly transphobic (even though they are perfectly reasonable).

There is no grey area for TRAs. You are either fully obedient or you support genocide and are a Nazi who wants to kill all trans people.

Many women here would agree with much of what you have said (my assumption) despite the hatred and vilification that women who disagree face.

All we really want to do is ensure that women's single sex spaces are enforced by law, that our language does not change and that children are given proper mental health support and not affirmed as trans & given puberty blockers.

No one cares what you think of yourself, what you want to wear, what you want to call yourself

People (me too) care if there is a compelled element for me to be forced to believe things about someone that I dont believe. I care if men are accessing prisons, hospital wards, changing rooms, toilets either because they pretened to be women or for nefarious purposes and given that statistically I am more at risk from a man pretending to be a woman than I am from any other man, that worries me

I care about the ideology that tells children 'if you want to wear this/have this personality trait/look like this/have this hobby/fancy this person' - then you are the opposite sex. Its regressive sex stereotyping that I thought we had lost in the 80s, we literally have gone back 40 years.

I certainly stood for a long time on the 'so long as they allow female needs to be met TOO alongside theirs, what's the harm?' line - totally confused as to why this political movement would not do any reciprocation of kindness and inclusivity and you know, actual caring about the sex being identified as or any understanding that the world was not solely about male people.

And then I looked at my own choice of word 'allow'.

And then I looked at the absolute fuckton of harm to women and girls and child safeguarding this has all caused with zero care, just never ending screaming and threats of violence, which is invariably sexual violence, almost always referencing specific sex based violence.

And went 'OH'.

And light dawned.

What FusionChefGeoff said.
Also I think if transpeople had either campaigned from the start for third spaces for changing rooms, toilets etc or for greater acceptance of them using the correct space for their sex, I’d be more likely to use the pronouns they wanted.

Stonewall could have achieved either of those if they fought for it. But they chose to attack women instead.

A year or two ago I would have agreed with you about the grey areas. I have always been of the opinion that people can dress how they like. I would have happily called someone she/her even though they are biologically a man. But that's not what transwomen want. They want us to acknowledge them as women and to give up our spaces. Women over time have budged up for men. Now we are expected to budge up for men in dresses and I refuse to do that.

I have a similar set of views to you.
I don’t care what people wear, or what they want to be called. I treat all people kindly and with respect.

However I don’t believe sex is changeable and I think there are some spaces/activities that should remain single sex for the safety and equality of females.

I always hate that the issue is simplified way too much. I do think the reason it has become so polarised is because of a push, from what I think is a minority of people, for transwomen to have access to all females spaces (inc prison sport etc). So women are pushing back and rightly I think. I also don’t think it helps when people who speak out in support of female only spaces, like JKR, get vilified like they’re the devil.

On a personal level I also struggle with the breaks in logic around some of the thinking. For example we are told sex doesn’t equal gender but then trans people have surgery and take drugs to make themselves appear like the opposite sex.

I think it’s a hard one to remain neutral on because it’s a bit give an inch take a mile it seems.

I believe everyone has a sex. This matters in things like health care and sport.
As a secondary effect it also matters in things like prisons changing rooms and shelters where women need protection from violent men and privacy.

"Gender", as a social construct... everyone has their own interpretation. I don't particularly care what other people want to wear, or be called, or do has a hobby. Its their choice. Relationships should be between any consenting adults. If people wish to present in a way that they percieve is the opposite "gender" then its their life.

You think you're in a grey area and that's actually part of the problem. You've been told people on "our side" want to prevent trans people from existing. Massive eye roll at that stupid nonsense.

Most people on "our side" don't give a damn about what adults want to wear or call themselves or have done to themselves.

We just don't want to be forced to accept men as women and to give them access to single sex spaces and sports. And we don't want important sex specific language neutralised to "people with [whatever body part]".

As for "non-binary", I don't want to eliminate non-binary people. I just think they are boring narcissists who think we can't see what sex they are.

I also think "life saving gender affirmation care" is body modification and sterilisation and should not be entered into lightly without other mental health problems being addressed. Good job the overwhelming majority of people who claim to be trans go no further than wearing different clothes.

If you don't accept 100% that TWAW and should have all the rights and spaces etc women do, then you are a nasty hateful violent transphobic bigot.

If you don't believe 100% in the "trans child" and affirm them and teach them they can actually change sex, then you are a nasty hateful violent transphobic bigot

Many people learning about this issue start where you are. It seems reasonable. You quickly learn it is not.

@FusionChefGeoff yes that makes sense, guess I need to go look at the trans movement more as I haven’t seen this, as I said I’m trying to learn more.

@PuttingDownRoots yes I agree I think everyone has a sex and that is biological. No matter what operations you have it’s still there. Which is where my thoughts on sports come into play.

@bellinisurge its interesting you said “I’ve been told” as it’s not at all. I’ve been on this board and some of the things I’ve read are awful. I asked a question as I’m learning and was called names by one poster. I even stated I’m trying to learn and they went on the defensive and were really rude. Most people have been lovely and helpful but there’s always a few that aren’t.

I completely agree with you re biological sex and gender not being the same. People born as biological males should not be competing in sports against people born as biological females. Bodies are different and every cell has copies of sex chromosomes which cannot be eradicated. This is scientific fact. I have no issue with people choosing to wear dresses/using desired name/pronoun etc but I do have issue with trans woman being housed in female only prisons, using toilets where young girls are present etc Also object to general feeling that somehow trans rights trump rights of biological females. Everyone has rights… no one is ‘more important/in need of support’ than anyone else. I think the ‘grey area’ you mention perhaps relates to this? Agree re previous poster- stonewall should have used their platform to try and raise awareness etc rather than make everything so adversarial.

OP I would recommend the book Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality written by Helen Joyce. It's very readable and explains why women are firmly asserting their right to believe in the reality of biological sex.

The "grey area" positions many of us once held were exploited to futher erode women's rights.

It's not hateful to say that humans can't changes sex, it needs to be the starting point for any discussions about changes to law and policy.

In my view people can wear what they want, change their name if they want but the cannot change their sex/gender. We are either male or female and that is a fact of nature. Those who view themselves as non-binary can call themselves that just as they could call themselves a goth, punk, vegetarian or vegan. I use those examples as they can change their description and with the later two there are people who eat meat or dairy and describe themselves as such - that is their choice and I would not question it. However, despite the name they give themselves they are either male or female.

We as a society should stop the third non-binary category and not use a prefix for male or female - this in a way allows people to mess with the biological definition. People are either male or female.

The question for me comes down to this.

Do we want to do away with same sex spaces? Do we think women & girls need or deserve same sex spaces?

How anyone identifies is really irrelevant as is the undefined gender identity or expression. Wear what you want. But we still need same sex spaces. Women/girls (and men/boys) right to these are under attack by gender ideology.

I think same sex spaces are vital. I want to protect & preserve them.

Why aren't TRAs campaigning to make men's spaces safer & more accommodating for all men? That would be progressive.

@Spyrothedragon23 your position as you describe it is pretty similar to what the women here tend to discuss. You seem to recognise sex as immutable and important in circumstances where women have been/are at risk/discriminated against etc.

I don't want to tell anyone how they should present or behave (within the bounds of legal behaviour) if that isn't affecting anyone else. Being critical of gender means exactly that people should not be bound by sexed expectations or stereotypes. I would use anyone's name as told to me. I don't agree with using "gendered" pronouns as they are the thin end of the wedge, but would avoid using pronouns at all if speaking face to face to avoid being actively contradictory.

So I don't see how there's a grey area in what you're saying.

If trans people were arguing for third spaces we would all be much closer together.
But instead we have issues in women's sports, girl guides, school residentials, refuges, toilets, NHS medical guidance working etc etc etc.

The overreach has harmed everyone.

Also I think many women have been pushed out of the grey area because we are the focus of all of the hate from trans activists and it our spaces they want to enter. They’re not trying to invade mens spaces. Transmen aren’t jumping up and down shouting trans men are men, let us into male prisons or men’s sports or men’s toilets. It’s women being asked to give up their spaces and being called names if they disagree.

I think that’s very telling.

The irony is that Stonewall and the mob that they incite are actually harming the people they claim to care about. By attacking women who speak up; by insisting that men should have access to our spaces; by trying to compel our speech; by introducing their ideology into our children's schools; by supporting male rapists (who clearly have no sense of gender identity but are just gaming the system) etc etc they are turning the public against trans people.

I started from a position of being kind and thinking transphobia was terrible. The piggybacking onto the fight for LGB rights fooled me.

But I am sick of male violence. I am sick of black-masked men trying to shut us up.

I am sick of the photos of men wanking in women's toilets which appear in my Twitter timeline. I am sick of seeing photos of young girls showing off their double masectomies. I am sick of the hideous phalloplasty photos.

Being called a Terf, transphobe, bigot and genocidal Nazi has become par for the course. The slurs become meaningless and are water off a duck's back.

I follow a couple of transsexuals (they still use that word) on Twitter. They use female names and like to wear dresses but know that they are male, understand that they have genuine gender dysphoria and they never use women's spaces.

I have to make a conscious effort to remember that there are still men like this who just want to get on with their lives, otherwise the aggressive behaviour of the vile TRAs would have turned me into the transphobe that they accuse me of being.

If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name
And that sounds great - until you think for just a second about the implications of doing that. How that action of intended acceptance of an individual gets taken as acceptance of a falsehood i.e. that biological sex doesn't matter. You may fully believe that sex does matter but by using language previously linked to sex to refer to 'gender', you affirm the opposite.
TRAs have removed any possibility of 'grey' areas.

My primary concern is protecting women and children. That means protecting any space where biological sex matters for women’s rights, safety, privacy and dignity. It also means pushing back against children being indoctrinated with harmful gender ideology that tells them that if they don’t conform to social constructs pf gender they ‘might be born in the wrong body’.

There are no grey areas there for me.

If, for example, an adult male wants to wear stilettos and lipstick and call himself Jane, I have absolutely no objections to that . If he feels uncomfortable around men in toilets and changing rooms, I support him campaigning for a third space.

I draw the line at being compelled to call him a woman. I draw the line at any compelled speech or thought. I do not want to share female only spaces with him. I will never call a man in a dress ‘woman’.

Again, no grey areas for me on that.

I was (am) a do gooder leftie, to be honest. ‘Be kind’ and ‘live and let live’ is in my blood. But I will die on this hill. I’m not rolling over for men on this one. It’s pretty black and white to me.

I have a question actually, what’s peoples view points on toilets? I don’t have an issue if someone is in the opposite sex toilets but thinks they are that sex if they are going about their business. It really wouldn’t bother me.

I can see how this could be abused but I also think if a man is going to go into the female
toilets to abuse someone they are going to do it whether they identify as male or female?

Has there been a rise in sexual assaults in toilets? Or is it because some females have been in bad relationships/ abused in the past they don’t feel comfortable with biological men in the female toilets?

if a man is going to go into the female toilets to abuse someone they are going to do it whether they identify as male or female?

So the solution is to stop all men from going into women's toilets!!
You have the answer but have chosen to turn it on its head to the detriment of women and girls.

Can I bring your attention to the Break It Down for Me thread, if you haven't already seen it? Loads of info on there which might help to explain things a bit better.

I am very much women are women and men are men. Transwomen are men who want us to pretend they are women and transmen are women who want us to pretend they are men. No one is any better or lesser then anyone else.

The thing that moved me from 'be kind' was learning about a fetish that some men have, where LARPing as women is arousing for them. So, is the TW in the female only space a person just trying to get by with a body they don't feel comfortable in, or is he getting off on being in women's spaces and being able to play out his fetish using women as unconsenting participants? How do I tell the difference? Best to keep all males, however they identify, out of female only spaces.

If it was just a case of not feeling safe using the correct facilities for their sex, there would have been more of a push for gender neutral single occupant facilities.

All that said, if someone introduced themselves to me with a name that was 'wrong' for their sex, I would try to accommodate them in the moment. But like when I read an article about someone like Sam Smith, I would mentally be using the grammatically correct pronoun in my head.

An of course there is the unanswerable question of 'what rights do trans people not have that the rest of us do?'

Break It Down For Me