Grey area on trans rights

[Spyrothedragon23]

Reasonably new and learning about be trans issues / community. Happy to learn more but my request as it’s a hot topic for people to keep it adult and polite.

Just wondering if it possible to be a bit grey on the area rather than black and white? Alot of people on these boards feel very strongly about the movement and in some ways I understand.

This is where I am a bit grey:

I don’t agree with anyone with the sex they are born with being in the opposite sex sports / jails etc it’s just wrong and not fair. There’s a biological advantage if some is male and moves to female for sports.

However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

Is there another area of this movement I’m missing? Are some people a little more grey rather than black and white?

And they are pretty good are seeing it for what it is.

Spyrothedragon23
However I don’t have an issue with someone wanting to be the opposite gender if it makes them happy. As long as it doesn’t affect or
impact others (see above statement about sports / jails etc). If it was a friend I would happily call them by a different pronouns or name.

OP this is pretty much the same opinion that most women on this board have, not sure what is grey area about it. However, that opinion is deemed hateful by many people (not on this board). That's where the problem lies...

I asked a question as I’m learning and was called names by one poster. I even stated I’m trying to learn and they went on the defensive and were really rude. Most people have been lovely and helpful but there’s always a few that aren’t.

How do you think you would be treated if you went onto a trans board and asked the same question? Do you think they would be polite and respectful? Bearing in mind women have been told to 'die in a grease fire' and sent rape threats for saying pretty much what you said in your OP.

I don’t have an issue if someone is in the opposite sex toilets but thinks they are that sex if they are going about their business. It really wouldn’t bother me.

Fair enough if it bothers you, but it does bother many women - you don't have the right to 'give away' women's spaces like that.

For me, I have never really cared much for ‘gender’ because I am drawn to people who challenge my assumptions and broaden my mind - so I would say that the majority of people I know are either gender-bending or fairly androgynous (in personality, appearance and/or behaviour).

On the other hand, I have always been firmly opposed to injustice, which became mainly feminism when I grew up. I am enraged by male domination, bullying and violence against women and girls. I get a visceral reaction to it - it doesn’t matter if it is bullying or sexually using others as props - objects.

If a man asks a woman to use a female name or female words to describe him, I see this as an act of male dominance.

If a man styles himself in a way that is stereotypical of women and expects to then be accepted by women as a woman, I see this as an act of male dominance.

If a man enters a space or provision set aside for women, I see this as an act of male dominance.

If a man wants to live his sexual fantasies in public, in front of non-consenting witnesses, I see this as an act of male dominance.

I could go on.

None of it is about ‘peacefully living as themselves’.

Women need to stop being mugs and giving blokes who are clearly taking the piss, the benefit of the doubt.

I agree with you OP, I'm finding it all really confusing

Pronouns are not for the individual they are for clarity to those talking about them and there's good reason to have clarity around pronouns.

Oh you're thinking of walking home in the dark are you? Don't worry, my friend Robin who you've never met will walk with you as she's going that way.

In this situation obscuring pronouns would allow a natal male Robin to rock up. Now Robin may be lovely but, as with any male, we can't tell the lovely ones from the not lovely ones till it's too late. And in this scenario if you are in any way uncomfortable walking home with a strange man in the dark once 'she' is invoked you can be called transphobic.

And yes I'm well aware some women wouldn't mind walking home/sharing rooms on a business trip/tents in girlguiding (hello teen pregnancy) but you don't get to consent on behalf of women that don't.

Funny enough I have gone through stages of caring and not caring about same sex spaces in my life. Teen. No way mortifying. Twenties adult who was super sporty and strong. Fine, crack on. Thirties after sexual assault and having children and needing to leave the door open to watch a pram. Not fine. Menopausal and flooding. Very not fine. Elderly and vulnerable. No way.

So your own stance might change. I'd suggest leave yourself some wiggle room for all life stages. Giving away privacy when you are young and strong seems like no big deal. It is.

How to tell me you are young fit and 'cool' without telling me that you are so though.

@Phoebo this thread is a 15 minute read, I suspect your confusion will evaporate pretty quickly.

I've come to the same conclusion. Women wanting to be kind and come to a compromise were told to 'die in a grease fire'. The very act of women saying no was incendiary. Nothing but complete and total uncomplaining capitulation was acceptable and was taken as a sign of weakness to be exploited.

Not sure why my post was withdrawn

I'm assuming it was because of the c word which must not be named here.

But it so is.

Op, you say that you're against transwomen in female prisons and sports. And then you say "etc" which suggests that there are other areas they shouldn't be in. (But not toilets, that's fine with you).

What's your stance on self-ID? And if this is one of your "grey" areas, how do you think this can be squared in legislation?

Do you think that transwomen should be able to self-ID as female and treated as female for all purposes or should any change in legislation be clear that there are some hard lines (ie TWANW)?

Oh man, I guess my post will go too

you've got to wonder what people think sexual realignment surgery for men involves. if they come out of it with their penis and testicles still in place, it hasn't been done right

Can I just say that I definitely found it unsettling at first. I think because I had always seen myself as a liberal, live and let live type. And so at first I was like 'what's the big deal?/ who am I to judge?' etc.

But then slowly I started to realise that things I was seeing and hearing (the reality) didn't fit with what we were being asked to buy into (the ideology). The reality of men being allowed into women's spaces was so obviously unfair, but at the same time I was being told it was all about 'fairness and equality', but I understood in my gut that it wasn't fair to women.
The fairness and equality all went the way of men who wanted to access our public spaces, sports teams, refuges, women's groups etc.

And when that made me very uncomfortable, I was told to just be kind and accept others as they were. But it has gone much farther than just acceptance.

The only real comparator I have in my head is religious belief - I absolutely accept that others may have strong religious beliefs that I do not share. I also think they should be protected in their belief and free from persecution or discrimination because of those beliefs.
However, I should not be compelled to participate in their belief. THAT is the difference. I don't believe that humans can change sex. I accept that some people do, and they shouldn't be discriminated because of that, but nor should I be compelled to agree with them and play along with their self image - particularly when I believe it disadvantages women.

It's difficult when we are being pegged as bigots and hateful right wing arseholes just for standing up for single sex spaces and saying we don't want children to be unnecessarily medicated. it can feel a bit disconcerting to realise that you don't align with the left anymore because they are pushing this so heavily.

Yes I see the desire to harm your own body in such extreme ways as a clear sign of mental illness and I don’t think surgeons and doctors should do it.

someone's riding the report button today!

a mum here who used to agree with you. No problem, wear whatever.
Took my DD to get boys clothes and thought nothing of it. I’m thinking Annie Lennox, cool, no problem.
apparantly that was normalising and I never understood the pain she was in and I am a fucking transphobe .
A lot of this thinking is coming from misogynistic ‘ trans’on you tube who are encouraging young women to wave placards saying’decapitate terfs’ and leave home to find a trans family that loves them.
its got so nasty, in the name of ‘be kind’ .

With regards to the ‘wear what you want’, my position is wear what you want within reason.

The vast majority of these men who identify as trans (including the decent ones) wear hyper sexualised women’s clothing - very short, tight skirts, low cut tops.

To me, that crosses the line from dysphoria/dysmorphia to it being sexualised.

Why all the deletions?

I agree. I see it in the same way as ‘flashing’ exhibitionism.

I can't stop men dressing like that, and although I find it distasteful, I wouldn't want to

what I do want is to be able to say 'that man is wearing those clothes because he has a fetish, and it's bringing him sexual satisfaction'

that enables us to avoid the 'man just expressing himself by wearing giant fake breasts when teaching children' scenario

If there is a loophole in regulations, someone will exploit it. Tax laws, building regulations, health and safety laws, tenants’ rights, whatever - there will always be someone taking advantage. And it’s the same with single sex spaces - allow TWs to use them and that will create a loophole for exploitation by someone, not necessarily TW themselves, but nonetheless it increases risks for women. Why would any woman agree to that?

Someone clearly takes this thread very personally.