Shocking scenes in Auckland, TRA pours liquid on KJK

[JacquelinePot]

I'm not even sure what to say about this, I just find it really shocking.

Baying mobs surrounded the intended event, one got onto the podium and poured red liquid all over KJK and KJK had to be removed amidst a huge crush.

I hope everyone is OK.

But many can not. They have had surgery. Many no longer look like the sex they were born.
Would you really welcome Pat in a woman's toilet, hospital ward or prison?

This. I am actually amazed how much she holds it together.

I resisted blaming the "omg you're encouraging the far right feminists" after last month at Hyde Park. But it's hard not to be resentful of people who insist KJK has some far right agenda when you're faced with the angry chants of "fascist" by aggressive young people.

If an individual is a biological woman then yes. If they are a biological man then no.

Don't know who the person is on the photo.

But this is where the third space option that most on here have suggested at some point, but is roundly condemned by the tras, would help those who no longer presenting as their actual sex.

Women, and men shouldn't have to give up their sex based rights and spaces because some people want to be the opposite sex so much and change their body so much.

@IWineAndDontDine I understand where you are coming from. I feel very confused and conflicted about the whole topic also. And have basically been sitting on the fence a bit.

I have a lot of sympathy for trans people (both trans men and women), and I support them being able to live their lives without discrimination or abuse, which they have for sure experienced for a long time. I also think we’ve come a long way as a society when it comes to stamping out homophobia and racism etc. And don’t want to feel that I am blocking trans people from making the same sort of progress in a modern enlightened multicultural and multi-faith society.

But the truth is at the end of the day, deep deep down I don’t genuinely believe that gender is a social construct (I’m Christian and I believe God made us the way he wanted us to be), and I don’t see trans women as exactly the same as women born biologically female. And they simply haven’t had/won’t have the same life experiences.

I also resent the increasing use of terms like cis-women and cervix-haver and pregnant person etc. I wouldn’t mind defining myself as a cis-woman if I were in the minority living in a society where most women are in fact trans-women but I don’t see why there is a need. And I don’t see anyone talking about cis-men.

I’m not sure I necessarily disagree with TWAW (which my teenage son firmly believes and one of the things that makes me uneasy about it is the almost brainwashed beliefs that he and his peers hold on this topic- it’s a tricky subject but he genuinely can’t see any grey areas or problems here at all and simply thinks I am a dinosaur bigot when it comes to trans people, which is frustrating as I don’t believe I have a bigoted view on the matter and have deliberately been sitting on the fence basically). But to me they are a special category or special subset of women if that makes sense? I’d basically simply like to find a way to co-exist peacefully. In the same way that eg as a Christian I don’t agree with Muslim or Hindu beliefs but I happily work alongside Muslim and Hindu colleagues daily without problems.

Anyway, I don’t know much about this Posie person (I do remember the furore over the posters actually but had forgotten about it and wasn’t sure what to think at the time). But I’m going to do some reading now. I have obviously seen her being described as in cahoots with the far right etc which makes me wary. But I also understand there is a lot of propaganda out there and I don’t know the truth of it.

I’ve definitely been really shocked by the scenes I saw today as I don’t think anybody deserves that level of literal physical violence and intimidation; I believe in freedom of speech. I read about what happened in the Guardian and came here to see people’s take on it. The level of aggression she has faced on this today has definitely made me think twice about whether I need to get down off the fence while I still can!

If I knew it was a single sex space then yes. Because I'd know anyone in there was 500x less likely than any transwomen to have been convicted for sexual crimes.

I'm interested in actual safety not superficial looks. Also, people tend not to pass in real life even if they do in photos. Transmen are generally smaller than average men. And of course, I'd have no problem at all if they still want to use the mens or third spaces. If they do use the men's that's for the men to sort out, and in that context they're only putting themselves at risk, not the entire population of women and girls. I'm only interested in protecting women and girls.

Men are bigger and stronger and I'm keen to keep people like the 6ft 5 sex offender Dolatowski out.

I am still trying to figure out this debate. I have never been TWAW but I've shifted a bit over the last year or so - away from the GC angle.

I'm not sure about the original billboard ad. I think that horrible GP has a point, I think it was incendiary. Of course on its own the dictionary definition of a woman is not 'offensive' but isn't it the context that counts? by stating one thing you are also stating something else (that trans women are not women)

Has anyone come across the tomato analogy? technically we know that a tomato is a fruit (and that transwomen are not literally women) but we still don't put it in a fruit salad (we don't force a transwoman, who has been living all their life as a woman, into the male toilets)

I have no idea what the solution is, to protect vulnerable women and trans men and transwomen. I believe both need protecting. And those scenes in NZ are horrifying - how has it come to this?

But to me they are a special category or special subset of women if that makes sense?

@Kyliealwayshadthebestdisco can i ask why do you see them as this rather than as a subset of men?

New Zealand has utterly embarrassed itself this past week.

Love and solidarity to the women of New Zealand and to Kellie Jay.

God, the headline from the Guardian is just appalling. A women's rights campaigner has been attacked following an ongoing campaign to whip up hatred and anger against her, then in the aftermath this is the headline they lead with.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/25/anti-trans-activist-posie-parker-ends-new-zealand-tour-after-violent-protests-erupt

but we still don't put it in a fruit salad

Speak for yourself! 😉

They could try accepting reality. The reality that "trans woman" is a uniquely male identity - and that actual women are adult females who are entitled to their own sex-based rights.

Accepting that basic reality would enable them to start developing a trans philosophy that makes some sort of sense, which can then inform realistic policies.

Third spaces are the answer.

Quite simple.

Still waiting for the TRAs to turn their energies and money towards providing these everywhere.

The Guardian are utterly captured. Their reporting of the Wi Spa incident was a disgrace. I used to read the Guardian daily but now I simply don't trust them.

Kellie Jay needs to start suing these newspapers for defamation / libel when they print she's 'anti-trans' not 'pro women's rights'. I'd donate.

Men go with men and the women who took testosterone, usually sad detransitioners tell everyone they are bio women, or go to men's room.
I don't care about men or their precious feeling s.

Yes, this is absolutely disgusting and they should be ashamed of themselves. Good photo, though

I am inclined to agree. I think she's ignored a great deal from outlets and individuals that's likely actionable. I always assumed she thought doing anything would be a distraction and that it wasn't harming her. People do go to her events in large numbers after all

I don't agree that 'third spaces' is the simple option.
Would you put Jan Morris in a third space?
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/20/books/jan-morris-dead.html

And for any lurkers, Google 'mumsnet third spaces' and see how many times they have been discussed and been dismissed by TRA's as 'othering and transphobic'.

TRA's are demanding total capitulation. Nothing less.

I would,yes.

Oh I agree. The utter contempt for women by the Guardianis just enraging.

Although it is currently the the most read article across the whole site, still gives sunlight.

Third space or the men's. But not the women's as he wasnt one

This Jan Morris?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4695399-sunday-times-article-by-jan-morriss-daughter

Nasty misgynist