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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

705 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 23/03/2023 13:18

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
RealityFan · 26/03/2023 22:35

Tanith, you're spot on. Gender ideology is as much a faultline on the right as the left.
Case in point, Tom Hardwood, full fat Brexiter, out of ECHR etc. He's a ramped up TWAW acolyte, for him as a libertarian, it's all personal consumer choice.
Mary Harrington knows all about the transhumanism as personal liberty end of politics.
May, Mordant, Keegan, very visible in their support.

RealityFan · 26/03/2023 22:36

Crispin Blunt as well.

BreadInCaptivity · 26/03/2023 22:50

All Keir Starmer is doing is exactly what the Conservatives have done. No-one batted an eyelid when they started rowing back - and they're the ones who've been in power throughout. They could have stopped it in its tracks in this country and they didn't.

You're making a false equivalence here. He hasn't rowed back.

All he said was if you are going to make reforms you need to carry the public with you.

He's not repudiating self id one iota he just thinks we need to be educated brainwashed into agreeing to it - and exactly how is public support going to be measured?

Oh I know, what about a general election where we don't vote for the party that's absolutely captured from the grassroots to the leadership...

Starmer is going to have to do far, far more than this to have been said to even revisit his current stance, never mind being said to row back from it.

ScrollingLeaves · 26/03/2023 23:05

Boris Johnson avoided ever defining a woman, and his wife was definitely pro-TRA - mind you, he lies about everything, so...

I don’t know if he has defined what a woman is but last year he broke some taboos.

March 24 2022
We must recognize that when people want to make a transition in their lives, that they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect,” he said.“But I do want to say in addition that I think when it comes to distinguishing between a man and a woman, that the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important.”

27 June 2022
Boris Johnson says there is a difference between being a woman and a trans woman and that someone 'cannot be born with a penis without being a man' - as he reaffirms his backing for FINA's ruling on trans athletes in swimming

LittleFingerStrength · 26/03/2023 23:18

MarshaBradyo · 26/03/2023 20:52

Lammy calling women dinosaurs comes from same place as turd guy in Aus

The violence in NZ and shocking imagery of Barbie K

And decapitate them in Scotland and pink leggings pic all comes from the same place

It starts with the inability to state biological reality as Starmer can’t and ends with violence

All the same men and their excuses

Lammy, an old man is apparently is hoarding money, then getting angry at women, telling them men can grow a cervix, that they are going to die out for wanting basic rights.

Since this parliament started in December 2019, Lammy declared income so far is £202,599 earned from 40 dufferent sources, the most of any MP.

RosaBonheur · 26/03/2023 23:29

BreadInCaptivity · 26/03/2023 22:50

All Keir Starmer is doing is exactly what the Conservatives have done. No-one batted an eyelid when they started rowing back - and they're the ones who've been in power throughout. They could have stopped it in its tracks in this country and they didn't.

You're making a false equivalence here. He hasn't rowed back.

All he said was if you are going to make reforms you need to carry the public with you.

He's not repudiating self id one iota he just thinks we need to be educated brainwashed into agreeing to it - and exactly how is public support going to be measured?

Oh I know, what about a general election where we don't vote for the party that's absolutely captured from the grassroots to the leadership...

Starmer is going to have to do far, far more than this to have been said to even revisit his current stance, never mind being said to row back from it.

Remember how remainers lent their votes to Labour in 2017 in the hopes of getting a softer Brexit or a second referendum and were then told that because they voted Labour they had voted to get Brexit done?

That is what Starmer will do with self ID. He is fudging things now to win votes, without ever promising not to do it, and then once Labour have won the next election he'll claim that the fact that they won is proof that the electorate supports self ID.

You mark my words.

Pixiedust1234 · 26/03/2023 23:32

TooBigForMyBoots · 26/03/2023 21:11

We already have men attacking women who speak. It happened this weekend, it's been happening for years. The Tories know about it, but have done nothing.

Men have always attacked women no matter who is in political power, mainly because its men in power.

Why haven't the Opposition been a thorn in their side over this, why have THEY done nothing?

BreadInCaptivity · 26/03/2023 23:32

Rosa I agree with you.

I don't trust him or the LP in general on this issue.

LittleFingerStrength · 26/03/2023 23:34

RosaBonheur · 26/03/2023 23:29

Remember how remainers lent their votes to Labour in 2017 in the hopes of getting a softer Brexit or a second referendum and were then told that because they voted Labour they had voted to get Brexit done?

That is what Starmer will do with self ID. He is fudging things now to win votes, without ever promising not to do it, and then once Labour have won the next election he'll claim that the fact that they won is proof that the electorate supports self ID.

You mark my words.

Show quote history

Yes, that will happen.

Have any politicians tweeted?

I saw this.

Shahrar Ali

Not sure what's more terrifying:Totalitarian mob siding with repeated punching of 70 year old woman (pictured) thinking they are right side of history. Deafening silence of politicians to condemn this violent misogyny (with some in my own party either making light or condoning)

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 08:52

I didn't know about Shahrar Ali. Andy Wightman was hounded out of the Scottish Green Party for even considering, let alone expressing, Gender Critical views.

Clearly there are different views across political parties. BUT

  • some parties tolerate different views
  • some political parties won't tolerate anyone stating the facts of life

The Green parties are particularly toxic on this. Gender Ideology seems to have obliterated any interest in saving the planet.

LittleFingerStrength · 27/03/2023 09:26

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 08:52

I didn't know about Shahrar Ali. Andy Wightman was hounded out of the Scottish Green Party for even considering, let alone expressing, Gender Critical views.

Clearly there are different views across political parties. BUT

  • some parties tolerate different views
  • some political parties won't tolerate anyone stating the facts of life

The Green parties are particularly toxic on this. Gender Ideology seems to have obliterated any interest in saving the planet.

Great, the Honoury Theologian is another who has strange ideas on science, she supports non binary identities who are nasty about women.

How Greens expect to be taken seriously on any science when they are anti science on what is a woman is beyond me.

LittleFingerStrength · 27/03/2023 09:29

Greta the theologian.

Laladybird · 27/03/2023 15:57

Tanith · 26/03/2023 22:28

"Gender ideology is more aligned with the left."

Where on earth do you get that idea from?

Christine Burns, one of the pioneers who set up Press For Change, was a Conservative party member.
Caitlyn Jenner is a Republican.
Theresa May made a speech at the Pink News Awards when she was Prime Minister, promising Self-ID and is still pro-trans, calling for a " trans-inclusive conversion therapy ban" last year.
Sue Pascoe is a TRA and is an area Chair of the Conservative Women's Organisation.
Rishi Sunak was unable to define what a woman is when first asked, finally coming up with an answer only a month ago.
Maria Miller started the whole Gender Recognition fiasco with Self id when she was Conservative Women and Equalities Minister, carried on by Caroline Noakes.
Ben Fitter-Harding is the Conservative Councillor in Canterbury accusing Rosie Duffield of transphobia.
Boris Johnson avoided ever defining a woman, and his wife was definitely pro-TRA - mind you, he lies about everything, so...

All Keir Starmer is doing is exactly what the Conservatives have done. No-one batted an eyelid when they started rowing back - and they're the ones who've been in power throughout. They could have stopped it in its tracks in this country and they didn't.

Thank you that is a useful list and warns against complacency. Unless a party is explicit that there are two fixed sexes GC voters need to probe their candidates carefully.

Green Party is easy though. No GC person can vote for them now.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 20:44

Thank you that is a useful list and warns against complacency. Unless a party is explicit that there are two fixed sexes GC voters need to probe their candidates carefully.

Who in the Conservative party are the least likely to understand the GC women’s, Let Women Speak women’s, LGB Alliance’s and Gay Men’s Network’s
points of view?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:09

The Tories introduced Self ID in 2017

They didn't though, did they? Maria Miller wanted to, certainly, but she got headed off at the pass, thanks to a takedown by Janice Turner and pushback from GC feminists.

As for Boris, you're arguing with yourself, because no one disputes that the Tories used to be more inclined towards self-ID. But they have shifted, in response to public concern.

This is what a Home Office minister said about KJK and the threat to women's rights today. Can you imagine any of the Labour front bench saying anything similar?

https://twitter.com/TalkTV/status/1640267395892649985?s=20

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:17

They did. And since then they've written it into policies and Bills. Put rapists into women's prisons. Put rapists onto women's wards, then denied that a woman was raped because no women were on her ward.

Since 2017 rapists and child abusers have filled their boots because of the Tory TWAW shite written into health, education, equality and law & justice policies.

They've been in power since 2010. This is on them.

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 21:27

They've been in power since 2010. This is on them.

We know that. But they hit the pause button.

Greens, Lib Dems and Labour want acceleration.

And it was Labour who created the fantastically ill thought out GRA 2004, and the Equality Act 2010 streaked with poor law.

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:32

They hit the pause button when Nicola Sturgeon resigned (similar to Starmer) and I haven't seen any roll back of the damage they've done. Plenty of pretty words and future faking but no action from the government.

TooBigForMyBoots · 27/03/2023 21:35

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:09

The Tories introduced Self ID in 2017

They didn't though, did they? Maria Miller wanted to, certainly, but she got headed off at the pass, thanks to a takedown by Janice Turner and pushback from GC feminists.

As for Boris, you're arguing with yourself, because no one disputes that the Tories used to be more inclined towards self-ID. But they have shifted, in response to public concern.

This is what a Home Office minister said about KJK and the threat to women's rights today. Can you imagine any of the Labour front bench saying anything similar?

Nothing about the Lesbians who were attacked in the UK this weekend?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 27/03/2023 21:35

They did. And since then they've written it into policies and Bills

Which bills?

ScrollingLeaves · 27/03/2023 21:41

What Sunak said
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4517255-JHB-asks-Rishi-Sunak-what-is-a-woman

He said he agreed with what Boris said.
Boris had recently made it clear enough (just before Sunak was asked that) that TW are not the same as women.

A year ago:
At Wednesday’s PMQs, Boris Johnson told MPs that “we must recognise when people want to make a transition in their lives that they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect” but added “when it comes to distinguishing between man and woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important( The Guardian)

June last year:
Boris Johnson says there is a difference between being a woman and a trans woman and that someone 'cannot be born with a penis without being a man' - as he reaffirms his backing for FINA's ruling on trans athletes in swimming ( The Daily Mail)

Some Conservatives began to slow down and take stock.

The Conversion Therapy Bill for T was paused due to concern that it would chill explorative psychological therapies for comorbidities to gender dysphoria and even parents’ involvement.

The Cass review was commissioned.

What did Sunak say more recently?

JHB asks Rishi Sunak 'what is a woman?' | Mumsnet

Mumsnet makes parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support on everything from conception to childbirth, from babies to teenagers.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4517255-JHB-asks-Rishi-Sunak-what-is-a-woman

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