Starmer rowing back on self ID - what do we think?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

The Times is reporting in its live politics feed that KS has explicitly said Labour will not push for self ID without public backing. I know not everyone can access their content so here is a copied n pasted version: what do you think?

Sir Keir Starmer has shifted Labour’s position on transgender rights as he said the bitter rows over Scotland’s Gender Recognition Bill showed the party must consider public opinion on the issue.The leader of the Labour Party has previously insisted it was committed to updating the Gender Recognition Act to introduce self-identification for transgender people.However, in a significant shift in Labour’s policy, he said the backlash over the SNP’s gender reform bill had made him think again. The SNP passed legislation this year that would make it significantly easier for people to acquire a gender recognition certificate and reduced the minimum age for doing so to 16. The bill was blocked by the UK government.Starmer said: “I think that if we reflect on what’s happened in Scotland, the lesson I take from that is that if you’re going to make reforms, you have to carry the public with you.

“And I think that’s a very important message and I think that’s why it’s clear that in Scotland, there should be a reset of the situation.”

[SammyScrounge]

@Shmithecat2

He's doing it for votes. Duplicitous tosser.

Exactly. He changes his view ro suit the prevailing view. At the moment, the storm in Scotland makes him fear losing votes so he changes tack again.

"Call not his broken promises a crime -
He meant them. how he meant them
At the time."

And we'll all see the truth of that when he's in power.

[RealityFan]

I hate to say it, but it's looking like Starmer is a shoe-in for 2024. I believe Self ID won't be in the manifesto, his words will be sufficiently luke warm on this, but a vow to ban trans conversion therapy (allied to an LGBT-wide policy) and laws to severely crack down on anti-trans hate speech.

Whatever our views on this, our passion is not widely held, and most of the electorate will not see this as controversial, and it'll get nodded thru.

What the future will mean beyond that, I have some downbeat opinions.

But I'm of the view that either Sunak won't or can't fight this corner effectively, and Starmer is right that culture issues will have negligible impact on the GE.

[SammyScrounge]

He still thinks that some women have penises. So are they the 'women'.whose concerns the Labour Party will listen to? Will Rosie Duffield be listened to instead of being shouted down and bullied?
I just don't believe a word Starmer says. He has never had time for women's issues. He's a bit late to the party now.

[RosaBonheur]

@RealityFan Left wing magical thinking is exactly it.

"Brexit means Brexit" and "trans women are women" both mean the same thing: "I want it to be true, therefore it is."

I suspect that the gender debate will end much the same way as Brexit will as well. The magical thinkers will win a legal victory (leaving the EU/self ID), but the reality will be unworkable and the next 15 years will be spent bringing in other measures to counteract the effects of the victory, until it may as well never have happened.

I think self ID will pass, then they'll put one too many male rapists in a women's prison and the optics will be too bad so they'll change prison policy. Then they'll end up clarifying the Equality Act to make it clear that sex means biological sex, and it'll all gradually get chipped away at until no one on either side is happy.

[CryptoFascistMadameCholet]

@LittleFingerStrength

I was here in 2016 and prior to the Brexit referendum most people weren't that interested in the topic and discussion about it was relegated to the Brexit corner, where pro Brexit posters were driving the conversation. After the referendum the whole site was reeling with shock. That mirrored what happened in the UK as a whole.

I have just seen a link that describes this type of person so well, they are like Gordon Brown moaning about Bigots.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1642267617380519938?cxt=HHwWhMC-gc3swMotAAAA

Matthew Goodwin is an excellent voice on this topic.

He’s one of the few left leaning public voices who speaks frankly about why Labour have failed and why they continue failing - he conducts loads of polling polling to inform his opinions.

He’s been a really interested listen since before Brexit but he has really started emphasising the women & trans rights clash of late - because that’s what’s coming up in his polling.

No doubt it’s why Starmer is trying to schmooze Stevenage Woman now.

[RealityFan]

@RosaBonheur

That's an interesting analysis.

As someone who was firmly on the pro remain side, I recognise both myself and my former opponents in that.

On Brexit, I was in the metropolitan elite camp, probably guilty of thinking those on the other side were stupid and bigoted. Now I'm on the gender critical side of the trans debate, I find myself up against opponents who clearly believe that those of us who don't subscribe to gender identity theory are stupid and bigoted. I think deep down I always knew that calling your opponents bigots was not the way to win hearts and minds, but it takes being on the receiving end of it to understand just how spectacularly ineffective it is.

However, in my defence, on Brexit I believe I only resorted to believing the other side were stupid and bigoted once rational discussion had failed to have any effect. And that's where I see parallels between staunch Brexiters and trans activists, with their total lack of interest in any debate and willingness to actively spread misinformation and threaten their opponents with violence. And some of the trans activists on Twitter resemble some of the Brexit activists - many of whom we now know were trolls and not real people - that it makes me suspicious about whether the trans activists are genuinely individuals who are passionately wedded to their own point of view, or whether some of them are trolls too. But I find that idea deeply disturbing for two reasons. Firstly, if it's not true, it's really dangerous to dehumanise your opponents in your own mind. And secondly, if it is true, who is behind it, and why?

Imho, trans activism is the Brexit/populism/magical thinking of the left.

Even now, Brexit arguments are populated with total mistruths, and skewed viewpoints, statistical lies, and cult-like emotions.

Certainly in 2016-2020, the herd mentality and purity spirals were toxic.

And the left liberal opposition to Brexit, and also Boris, Trump, anti vaxx etc always rested on the side of reason and logic etc.

Well, now the left has had an almighty collective nervous breakdown and adopted the same herd/magical thinking that people can change sex, that it's fine to medicalise teens into their adult life, that any dissent means you approve of mass suicide and abolition of a whole group of people.

And this is where we are.

[Kucinghitam]

@RosaBonheur Your posts this morning 🙌 Are you me???

[RosaBonheur]

That's an interesting analysis.

As someone who was firmly on the pro remain side, I recognise both myself and my former opponents in that.

On Brexit, I was in the metropolitan elite camp, probably guilty of thinking those on the other side were stupid and bigoted. Now I'm on the gender critical side of the trans debate, I find myself up against opponents who clearly believe that those of us who don't subscribe to gender identity theory are stupid and bigoted. I think deep down I always knew that calling your opponents bigots was not the way to win hearts and minds, but it takes being on the receiving end of it to understand just how spectacularly ineffective it is.

However, in my defence, on Brexit I believe I only resorted to believing the other side were stupid and bigoted once rational discussion had failed to have any effect. And that's where I see parallels between staunch Brexiters and trans activists, with their total lack of interest in any debate and willingness to actively spread misinformation and threaten their opponents with violence. And some of the trans activists on Twitter resemble some of the Brexit activists - many of whom we now know were trolls and not real people - that it makes me suspicious about whether the trans activists are genuinely individuals who are passionately wedded to their own point of view, or whether some of them are trolls too. But I find that idea deeply disturbing for two reasons. Firstly, if it's not true, it's really dangerous to dehumanise your opponents in your own mind. And secondly, if it is true, who is behind it, and why?

[LittleFingerStrength]

@RosaBonheur

Almost certainly.

Here on Mumsnet there are Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green and SNP voters (and others besides that), there are Brexit and Remain voters, there are women living in every part of the UK and women living outside the UK, there are women in their early 20s and women who are grandmothers, there are teen mums and women doing IVF to have their first child in their 40s, there are women with very large families and women who are childfree by choice, there are women who earn six figure salaries, women who have inherited huge sums of money and women scraping by on universal credit, there are women of all ethnicities and religions, there are women who work full time outside the home and women who stay at home with their kids, there are married women, never married women, divorced women, widowed women, single mothers and women in same sex relationships. There are even a few men.

So yes, Stevenage woman is certainly here. But so is just about every other kind of woman, and nearly all of us have the right to vote in UK elections.

That's why I'm astounded by the ignorance and complacency of anyone dismissing women who don't believe TWAW as just a few bigots on Mumsnet. If most women on Mumsnet don't believe TWAW, that is actually something that ought to worry any political party which does believe TWAW and which hopes to win an election.

I think Mumsnet is actually a pretty good bellwether for predicting political outcomes. I was here in 2016 and prior to the Brexit referendum most people weren't that interested in the topic and discussion about it was relegated to the Brexit corner, where pro Brexit posters were driving the conversation. After the referendum the whole site was reeling with shock. That mirrored what happened in the UK as a whole.

I was here in 2016 and prior to the Brexit referendum most people weren't that interested in the topic and discussion about it was relegated to the Brexit corner, where pro Brexit posters were driving the conversation. After the referendum the whole site was reeling with shock. That mirrored what happened in the UK as a whole.

I have just seen a link that describes this type of person so well, they are like Gordon Brown moaning about Bigots.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1642267617380519938?cxt=HHwWhMC-gc3swMotAAAA

[RosaBonheur]

@RealityFan

Disillusioned conservative-minded female voters? Any here on MN?

Almost certainly.

Here on Mumsnet there are Tory, Labour, Lib Dem, Green and SNP voters (and others besides that), there are Brexit and Remain voters, there are women living in every part of the UK and women living outside the UK, there are women in their early 20s and women who are grandmothers, there are teen mums and women doing IVF to have their first child in their 40s, there are women with very large families and women who are childfree by choice, there are women who earn six figure salaries, women who have inherited huge sums of money and women scraping by on universal credit, there are women of all ethnicities and religions, there are women who work full time outside the home and women who stay at home with their kids, there are married women, never married women, divorced women, widowed women, single mothers and women in same sex relationships. There are even a few men.

So yes, Stevenage woman is certainly here. But so is just about every other kind of woman, and nearly all of us have the right to vote in UK elections.

That's why I'm astounded by the ignorance and complacency of anyone dismissing women who don't believe TWAW as just a few bigots on Mumsnet. If most women on Mumsnet don't believe TWAW, that is actually something that ought to worry any political party which does believe TWAW and which hopes to win an election.

I think Mumsnet is actually a pretty good bellwether for predicting political outcomes. I was here in 2016 and prior to the Brexit referendum most people weren't that interested in the topic and discussion about it was relegated to the Brexit corner, where pro Brexit posters were driving the conversation. After the referendum the whole site was reeling with shock. That mirrored what happened in the UK as a whole.

[RealityFan]

Disillusioned conservative-minded female voters? Any here on MN?

[DrBlackbird]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/apr/01/stevenage-woman-vital-to-labour-success-at-next-election-analysts-say

They seem pretty out of touch with the demographic they’re describing. 🤔

[RosaBonheur]

The Gender Recognition Act IS outdated.

Gender is just a bunch of sexist stereotypes straight out of the 1950s, and anyone can now marry someone of the same sex as themselves, so there is no longer any need for the GRA and it can be abolished.

Sadly I don't think that's what Labour have in mind.

[DrBlackbird]

So the GRA is ‘outdated’? 🤔 But interestingly no explanation of what they mean by that, no upfront information about how a ‘modern’ GRA would look like, no suggestion that they’re intention is to protect woman’s and children and support those with gender dysphoria.

And interesting framing in that now anyone suggesting concerns about ’updating’ will clearly be positioned as against progress because the current GRA is outdated innit. It’s a good way to shut down discussion right from the get go.

Labour is just as bad in elitism and dismissing ordinary folks worries. Like Brown calling that older woman a racist and now Starmer et al truly believing that we wimmin just don’t get it and need to be more informed. Then we will.

They’re also equally bad with the snippy one liners eg ‘banning all conversion therapy’ and ‘all private schools will lose their charitable status’. Now, that may be true for the likes of Eton, but there are many many tiny private schools who provides for children with autism and with severe LDs etc. It’s time to stop these sweeping declarations (all Tories are scum).

[PetriDaffoBill]

He's a dick of the highest order. Girls still can't be what/who they want to be nor can boys. Also, kiss my ass

[nilsmousehammer]

@ScrollingLeaves

Re: Labour will:
Ban conversion therapy in all forms

That means banning talking therapies, and ‘wait and see’ approaches rather than affirming approaches.

That means Labour is too stupid to see that transing children is conversion, and may often entail the covering up of other problems which will not go away.

Are they going to ban trans activists applying conversion therapy to homosexual women who will not provide sex to straight men?

Thought not.

[FascinatingCarrot]

*told to

[FascinatingCarrot]

@HermioneWeasley

This is what the Labour Party have tweeted today so forgive me if I don’t trust Starmer or any of them. Women’s rights are not safe with Labour.

Looks like he's been reigned in then

[ScrollingLeaves]

Re: Labour will:
Ban conversion therapy in all forms

That means banning talking therapies, and ‘wait and see’ approaches rather than affirming approaches.

That means Labour is too stupid to see that transing children is conversion, and may often entail the covering up of other problems which will not go away.

[dcbc1234]

@nepeta

But the Labour Party is not committed to a society where women feel safe and respected, that is very clear. And very sad.

Doubly ridiculous when the recent census showed what a tiny proportion of people even identity as 'trans'.

[nepeta]

@HermioneWeasley

This is what the Labour Party have tweeted today so forgive me if I don’t trust Starmer or any of them. Women’s rights are not safe with Labour.

But the Labour Party is not committed to a society where women feel safe and respected, that is very clear. And very sad.

[HermioneWeasley]

This is what the Labour Party have tweeted today so forgive me if I don’t trust Starmer or any of them. Women’s rights are not safe with Labour.

[dcbc1234]

@Floisme

Thinking more about why I believe there's still a long way to go - who remembers the Labour Sheffield rally in 1992? I bet Starmer does.

I remember it. It was thought many people suddenly were too worried about the proposed tax increases once in the ballot box. I voted Labour then lol.

[dcbc1234]

@LittleFingerStrength

Unfortunately it comes with harm to children and whilst some may be content with the woman aspect they won't be with the access to children aspect.

Yes I asked a male poster in Telegraph comments to consider children if he didn't care about women and he got all protective towards me bless him. Most decent people do not want or believe in gender identity ideology. The multi-pronged nature of the impact of the institutional capture is definitely still a hot topic in the Daily Telegraph. Today's article was on the need to overhaul sex education in schools. Alison Pearson also covered it yesterday.

[dcbc1234]

@ResisterRex

They're not rowing back. "Modernise the GRA" is still there. We all know what that means. I ain't fallin for it:

twitter.com/uklabour/status/1641689281617088512?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

The Tories really are the only party fighting back...yes they were also captured but not everyone fell for it owing to an underlying belief in free speech and biological reality.
Women voters would be very naive to believe Starmer on this, if this is the official Labour party twitter. Once self-id is Law it will be very hard to keep women's rights and protect children at all.
What has Starmer said about Tavistock? Still zilch?