Residential trips

[JustFuckOffPlease]

Name changed for this.
I knew it was only a matter of time.

I teach in a secondary school and we've so far not experienced too many challenges to our single sex provisions despite having increasing numbers of teens (mostly girls) that socially transition for a short period.

I'm running a week's residential course (tied to my subject) for 14 yr olds and one biological male who identifies as a girl has requested that they share with their friends. Girls. I responded before half term to this request and said that they must share with friends of the same biological sex. It went very quiet for weeks, but yesterday afternoon, parents have emailed me, cc'ing the Head to express their dissatisfaction that their child can't share with their female friends.

The accommodation we use are dormitories - minimum of 4 sharing, maximum of 8. I've emailed the hostel (who frequently run school trips) to see what their policy is on these matters so I'll hopefully hear on Monday.

We have quite a strong LGBT staff body and an SLT that will tick all the boxes to be seen to be doing the 'right thing'.

I'm anticipating being told that I need to listen to these parents who are insisting that I let their DC share and to not be discriminated against.

What are my options here? There's 4 staff attending this trip, 2 male 2 female. I organise it and I do NOT agree with biological males sharing a bedroom and changing rooms with biological females, no matter what feelings they have.

Yeah, sorry, my quotes were supposed to indicate what the OP should say. And anticipating the parents may claim the child isn't male.

@AmuseBish no problem, I see now!

Any Muslim)/Jewish girls on the trip.who.would not be allowed to attend if he is using the girls toilets and showers. It's not just about the room it's about the other stuff as well. It's so fucking racist and ablist.

If he's on the girls floor/wing/section of the hostel then other girls with protected characteristics could be discriminated against.

Please don’t back down. The transgirl at Dds school was instrumental in getting older men and teenage ‘be kind’ girls in the same social media group. It did not end well. The child thought they had lots of power and invincible due to a weak SLT trying to be cool. Police and social services saw otherwise and the school was reprimanded.

Also it only takes one girl to accuse. You are safeguarding the boy as well.

Trying to keep this simple:

The DC doesn't get a vote.
The DC's parents don't get a vote
The DC's female friends don't get a vote.
The DC's female friends parents don't get a vote.

This is a safeguarding issue. Document the issues to the SLT and make it clear that you won't carry the can if they try to dissemble

And sooner or later, a male child will appear that female children really do not consent to. You cannot say yes to some and not to others.

You shouldn't have to justify sex segregation on this basis ^, but as a fall back, it should really be the clincher.

In fact, allowing one biological male into the girls' facilities could easily and instantly precipitate any number of other boys claiming discrimination, for any number of reasons, including just to be annoying.

Coupled with, as a PP said, 'I don't want the school to end up on the front page of the Daily Mail'.

Just NO. The adults are responsible for safeguarding and also for getting students to accept reality. It is not up to the parents ,the girls , or the boys parents. Hold the line on this otherwise there will be more problems down the line. What about male teachers supervising the girls side? Once you change the rules then girls will be at risk.

Used to be one of many safeguarding tests back in the dark ages. "What would this look like on the front page of the News of the World/Daily Mail/The Sun if it all goes tits up? How would we look? Would our explanation stand up?"

Got a lot of bloody awful bright ideas shut down quick.

And yes. Deeply misogynist phrase, because it was deeply misogynist thinking. Sadly the threat of total public humiliation, questions being asked at high levels and possible suing tended to get the brass off their bums much faster than actually caring about children not experiencing something awful. And it still does. Particularly these days if those children were unlucky enough to be born girls.

(Insert soothing mantra here about of course no one knows they're girls, no genital checks or chromosome checks, sex doesn't exist, yada yada yada, while operating entirely bloody sex based thinking and male supremacism )

@foodfiend I remember your thread. Can I ask what happened in the end? No probs if you don't want to say.

The boy is doing something wrong by ignoring girls boundaries, their need for privacy, dignity and safety.

Several pp have said ‘it may result in pregnancy’ but pregnancy could only occur after a host of other harms had happened, starting with telling girls that having boundaries is wrong.

A child having a room in the adults section, puts them and any adult into a firing line as it reduces their boundaries and puts the adults at risk of an accusation.

We have safeguarding and single sex spaces for reasons. These reasons do not disappear because one child decides it.

Just reading through foodfiend's thread from last year.

"This whole approach relies upon everyone pretending that they really believe A is female to protect A's feelings/ and magic away any safeguarding concerns"

This was what I meant by 'denying the child is male' - it seems to be where it ends up. You could make the point that they are therefore denying the child is trans (as well as outright lying that they are female). I doubt it would have much sway reading the Stonewall non-safeguarding non-policy in the other thread though...

Definitely talk about this in terms of single sex/mixed sex sleeping accommodation. This child is requesting that some of the sleeping accommodation becomes mixed sex.

Also what about the toilet/showers? Which ones is he expecting to use?

@foodfiend are you able to say what happened in the end with your school? Your post in this thread with the potential scenarios was v helpful.

Yes, this, totally. We have loads of Muslim pupils and I've already checked the list of deposits made and we have at least 4 Muslim teenage girls attending.

They've already lost one of our larger toilet blocks to the 'gender neutral' bollocks so cannot wee in there or even adjust their hijabs FFS.

Eugh, pass up the food chain to the safeguarding lead but make a point it is perfectly legal to separate by sex in this situation.

www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/719398/Gender-separation-guidance.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi6lMfp5uf9AhUjSkEAHX-RAz0QFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw037sJzDd0S-DvC3n_hqbA_

Third spaces, third spaces, third spaces and the parents of the child needing third spaces should pay for the cost of this.

Residential trips are not a human right nor a given. Many times in my DDs secondary school they do a lottery as oversubscribed, lots of children lose out. If they feel uncomfortable with safeguarding arrangements, they don't have to go.

They will be discriminating against the other children if they allow a biological male in with the girls. I would bet a lot of money on there being many girls in that group who actually don't want to share, but are scared of saying so. Regardless, if the children are under 18 it's not their decision to make. I'm also betting a lot of money the other parents would not consent to mixed sex overnight spaces.

If this happened to my child and she got pregnant or sexually assaulted, I would sue the school. If she got pregnant and kept the baby I would be suing the school for the full cost of keeping the child they had failed to prevent through proper safeguarding (until 18). I would go all the way and I would go to national media once I could (consider legal requirements).

Definitely get the school's insurance company involved with this decision. The lowest risk option has to be a third space.

It is going to become a necessary access and inclusion thing for residential centres to begin to provide small single rooms for children whose identities present an issue to dormitories. That is a cost they will have to pick up to be able to take bookings from schools, it's a common enough problem now and they are the ones who have to provide accessible accommodation.

The emphasis is reasonable adjustments (or should be). It is reasonable not to force a child to sleep in a space they would be deeply concerned about their privacy and dignity in. It is equally reasonable to require the child to extend to others the same concern for privacy and dignity. A child with a known identity need can be provided with a safe alternative: but it will have to be a choice between same sex dormitory or single space of their own.

It is reasonable not to force a child to sleep in a space they would be deeply concerned about their privacy and dignity in. It is equally reasonable to require the child to extend to others the same concern for privacy and dignity.

Yes. And this is what the equality act advocates for.

'A proportionate means to a legitimate aim.'

And interesting nils about the prospect of being a daily Mail headline was a safeguarding test. An fairly instant focusing of the mind!

@JustFuckOffPlease No child can hold a GRC, so their legal sex is always the same as their biological sex. Single Sex Spaces are legally permitted.

For the risk assessment school facilitating sexual abuse, rape, paraphillia’s such as voyeurism, exhibitionism (Riley Gains evidence about Lia Thomas) etc. and potential for pregnancy and STIs.

@nilsmousehammer my understanding of the EA2010 is that “reasonable adjustments” only relate to removing barriers for disabled people not to the other 8 protected characteristics.

Yes, I agree with this and is the only way forward imho.

I'm concerned that the hostel facility provider will allow for this pupil to share with his female friends, and my SLT will simply go along with it.

I'm overthinking this scenario to try and be ready.

Go to the school 's insurer and see if they are covered for this.

Money always wins

Yes, absolutely that.