Residential trips

[JustFuckOffPlease]

Name changed for this.
I knew it was only a matter of time.

I teach in a secondary school and we've so far not experienced too many challenges to our single sex provisions despite having increasing numbers of teens (mostly girls) that socially transition for a short period.

I'm running a week's residential course (tied to my subject) for 14 yr olds and one biological male who identifies as a girl has requested that they share with their friends. Girls. I responded before half term to this request and said that they must share with friends of the same biological sex. It went very quiet for weeks, but yesterday afternoon, parents have emailed me, cc'ing the Head to express their dissatisfaction that their child can't share with their female friends.

The accommodation we use are dormitories - minimum of 4 sharing, maximum of 8. I've emailed the hostel (who frequently run school trips) to see what their policy is on these matters so I'll hopefully hear on Monday.

We have quite a strong LGBT staff body and an SLT that will tick all the boxes to be seen to be doing the 'right thing'.

I'm anticipating being told that I need to listen to these parents who are insisting that I let their DC share and to not be discriminated against.

What are my options here? There's 4 staff attending this trip, 2 male 2 female. I organise it and I do NOT agree with biological males sharing a bedroom and changing rooms with biological females, no matter what feelings they have.

It sounds like you think "trans" means "people who want to be the opposite sex". This was the old definition, and many of us had sympathy for such people.

Now it means that you are literally a man or a woman if you have a certain type of feeling, which I believe is not true and not workable in society in terms of law and policy.

The only question in this situation - in this thread, which is what we are discussing and trying not to be derailed - is whether mixed-sex sleeping accommodation for teenagers at school is more, or less, risky in terms of safeguarding than single-sex. Do you have an opinion on this?

Do you want to go through previous posts to find my stance or I need to do it myself to prove my innocence in front of you as a judge? Is this a joke?

Are posts now only limited to the mentioned subject itself and any other general comments are not allowed now? Can you give me a link for the new policy?

My stance was clear in every post - women's/ girl's/ children's right should not be compromised.

Not a joke. So you agree that mixed-sex is riskier?
Just wasn't clear as you seemed to be saying that societal factors were relevant to the OP's safeguarding situation.

We had this on a trip - a trans boy refused to share with girls and claimed they were entitled to share with the boys. We refused point blank. We even had some boys asking us if they would have to share a room with this child, and making it clear they were not willing to.
We ended up telling the child and their parents that they could share with girls, or pay extra for a private room. They choose the latter option.

@amnm what happens next year when you have a boy willing to pay for a private room (so he can seek his Girlfriend in there).

I agree that safeguarding and protecting other children's equality of consideration is absolutely not 'hostility' as some random prejudice against transness.

It is not the being trans that is the problem: it is that the desire is to matter more than others by having their normal needs, policies, protections, set aside in sacrifice to the person with the trans word involved. That is the part that is not ok. It is no problem to equally respect and meet needs, but the idea that it is just 'hostility' to refuse to subordinate others and put them at risk for a trans person is ridiculous manipulation. And yes, we've all been fed these marketing strategies and language tricks for a very, very long time, it's hard to challenge them and weed them out.

I can be entirely 'un hostile' to a trans person and retain normal boundaries and expectations of mutual respect between us. If my refusal to surrender those boundaries and accept less so that they can have more than their fair share unreciprocated is 'hostile' then that word has gained a very odd meaning. It is not my behaviour in this situation that is unacceptable. Nice people do not pressure others to stop saying no and do things they don't want to do or feel comfortable doing.

I don't feel having a student in a private room greatly increases this risk. That can happen on any trip and doesn't need a private room - students can easily exchange rooms in the middle of the night, or sneak out of their rooms into the public bathrooms etc. Also, we've had students in the past who have had private room for other reasons (e.g. medical issues, or sleep disturbance issues).I've been a teacher for 15 years and know full well what can happen, and how to take steps to prevent it.

The issue here is not being willing to force students (e.g. the boys, in this case) to share a room with someone they are uncomfortable with.

Re the 'reasonable adjustments' bit -

Yes, it is specific to disability, it was hoovered up into the Equality Act from what was previously the Disability Discrimination Act, and the wording came with it.

It is however known wording and approach to balancing needs as is often needed in inclusion situations for disabled people, and can be a useful way to look at what is possible, and then what of those possibilities is reasonable, when proving that you have not acted in a discriminatory manner.

I might for example argue that to ask a male child who dresses and presents as a girl and has done for years to share a dormitory where they will stand out among other boys and be upset at being treated and grouped with boys, may be a distressing thing for this particular child (varied from child to child) and therefore a reasonable adjustment is to offer a separate sleeping space that is either a space of their own unshared or shared with another same sexed trans child from the group.

I make no comment in that on how kind it is to support a child in the belief that they are not sexed and that their sex can change because they will constantly run up against the distress of reality and have been left unprepared and unsupported in dealing with this. Or go into the large number of issues of the Cass report and social transition not being harmless: I won't derail the thread. But that is a reasonable adjustment that respects the child's expressed feelings and identity that they do not want to be grouped with their sex AND maintains that creating mixed sex accommodation is not possible or reasonable and cannot happen.

Return2thebasic · Today 12:15

. . . I don't want to provide any data, because I'm not interested in digging into it - it hurts my mental health. . . .

A brilliant point, I suggest you use this in every exam, essay, job interview or competence test you have to do for the rest of your life.

Can you stop the passive attack and go on and on? Does this make you feel more superior and more intelligent? 😂There are people accusing me for derailing the post...

That comment could make anyone think they are more intelligent and that there's no point in reading anything you post.

Maybe consider the point rather than attacking people who point out how silly you seem.

To reiterate earlier pp, thank you op for being prepared to take this on while others (eg the residential accommodation provider) carefully look the other way & slope their shoulders. Safeguarding should not be a matter for the children, not really for their parents, and nor should one member of staff be made to take on all the responsibility.

I really hope that you now have support from other staff members & are able to get this sorted quickly 💐

Thank you @JustFuckOffPlease for standing up to this.

I'm a teacher too. This is currently my worst nightmare. It's only a matter of time before is happens at my school.

Op, how have you got on? I can't believe there's been a case in a primary school!

Thank you for standing firm on this OP, and for protecting girls.

I think the discussion with SLT needs to start from the position of asking why do we not have mixed sex sleeping arrangements? Reason one is because of risk of pregnancy and sexual assault. Does the 'trans' status of the young person mean they are unable to have sex with girls? No. Therefore he cannot share with girls. Next step is, how can we make this trip work for the transgirl given he cannot share with girls. Could he share with one or two other boys who are friends with him and won't give him a hard time? If not, single room and be sympathetic to how he feels, make sure he's included, watch out for bullying etc.

I also agree with a previous poster about how damaging it is to hand so much power to kids by going along with the fiction that they have changed sex. Everyone could be respectful of individual gender choices while still being clear that sex matters in a few specific situations and all this stress could be avoided. These poor 'trans' kids are being turned into perpetual victims, their sense of self totally dependent on compelling others to go along it and always knowing deep down that it's a lie.

Lasts of the deposits have been paid today and the trip is officially closed. I've requested the list from admin so I'll know on Monday whether this particular pupil is on the trip.

The Head is aware (I've had a tip off) and has yet to approach me. I think they're waiting burying head until it has to be dealt with. Previous conversations re toilets and previous training leaves them with absolute certainty my view on this. I think they're avoiding me.

Bring it on I say.

Thinking of you

Good luck, OP.

Keep us posted. Thank you, again, for protecting girls.

I haven't had time to read the thread, so massive apologies if this has already been said, but even if the girls say this is fine, it's because they have been completely indoctrinated to say it is. They have grown up with 'be kind, girls, only boys feelings matter' their whole lives. They are scared and confused. If I was a mother of one of the girls, I would be kicking off big time - we HAVE to protect them because they can't.

If you don't tell parents a biological boy is going to be in with the girls you are taking away the choices they should have as primary adults responsible for safeguarding their children.

I think any legal action taken on that basis would be a slam dunk.

If you told parents, I bet so many girls parents would pull them out the trip couldn't go ahead.

The insurers I am sure would not be happy with this. Because parents aren't informed of the risks - if they're not informed, the school would be liable.

@JustFuckOffPlease
Can you directly contact the school's insurers...act all nervous, timid and want their wise advice because you don't want the school to get in trouble...
then you can approach the Head ( if the school is not covered) inform her and let her realize you've saved her ass...

Food for thought!

Any news, @JustFuckOffPlease?