Should IVF be available to lesbians?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And single women? Or should assisted conception only be for infertile women in heterosexual relationships?

[MolkosTeenageAngst]

@EndlessTea

Infertile women don’t require ‘sperm donors’ to treat their infertility.

I don’t think lesbians should get free sperm as part of their nhs treatment, but if they are able to fund/ provide their own sperm (whether through a known donor or with bought donor sperm) then a lesbian with fertility problems should be entitled to the same treatments as a heterosexual woman with fertility problems. Where the sperm comes from shouldn’t really matter in terms of providing a treatment for the female with infertility.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

@ninjasnap

I'd much rather the NHS/tax payer/myself fund lesbian/gay IVF then gastric bands/lifestyle inflicted diabetes/ smoking cessation on the NHS.

So many things can be avoided by healthy lifestyle choices. Infertility/sexual orientation cannot.

Addiction is a choice now?

Interesting.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

@EndlessTea

I think I’ve entered the twilight zone.

What do you think infertile couples where the man cannot produce sperm do? They get sperm from a donor. Lesbians do the same.

[Eyerollcentral]

@lemons44

*That does not extend to the right to have treatment and donor sperm and eggs to assist you in conceiving a child.

You don’t have a right to have the state fund it though. *

@Eyerollcentral but what ever your options are on ethical and moral grounds, under my CCG, people in female same sex couples DO have this medical right to treatment (not a baby, treatment). If they pay into the NHS, why should they not access the funding agreed by the CCG for their own benefit? After all, people with children use the NHS for their children's health, because this is their medical right. Your moral opinions, do not change the fact that people (dependent on their CCG funding priorities) do, in fact, have the MEDICAL RIGHT to have the NHS pay for this treatment, if they meet the criteria and want it. Regardless of if you think it is right or not, it is literally happening.

What do you mean by fertility treatment? That could be anything.
I haven’t said anything about morality. I said the NHS shouldn’t be funding fertility treatment for anyone.

[EndlessTea]

@MolkosTeenageAngst

I don’t think lesbians should get free sperm as part of their nhs treatment, but if they are able to fund/ provide their own sperm (whether through a known donor or with bought donor sperm) then a lesbian with fertility problems should be entitled to the same treatments as a heterosexual woman with fertility problems. Where the sperm comes from shouldn’t really matter in terms of providing a treatment for the female with infertility.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[RethinkingLife]

@ninjasnap

I'd much rather the NHS/tax payer/myself fund lesbian/gay IVF then gastric bands/lifestyle inflicted diabetes/ smoking cessation on the NHS.

So many things can be avoided by healthy lifestyle choices. Infertility/sexual orientation cannot.

PCOS can underlie both obesity and reduced fertility to the point of infertility.

Gastric bands and smoking cessation can save the NHS substantial sums of money as well as improving the health related quality of life for those affected by it.

Obesity is a long-term condition with multiple contributory factors as demonstrated in this system map; neither obesity nor type 2 diabetes are universally amongst the "things can be avoided by healthy lifestyle choices."

shiftn.com/_uploads_pdf/shiftN-Obesity-Map-A0-kopie.pdf

[ninjasnap]

Where's the addiction then? I was an anorexic, highly vunerable partient. I didn't get help. If I want it now, my husband needs to pay for it. Fair enough? I don't expect the NHS to fund it, but who should they fund?

My gay brother? My infertile SIL? Who chooses?

At least I'd hope by not smoking/taking care of myself/paying for my own healthcare any spare sperm goes to them??

[EndlessTea]

@TooBigForMyBoots

What do you think infertile couples where the man cannot produce sperm do? They get sperm from a donor. Lesbians do the same.

A lesbian cannot produce sperm because she is not male, not because she is infertile.

[blumppump]

@ninjasnap

I'd much rather the NHS/tax payer/myself fund lesbian/gay IVF then gastric bands/lifestyle inflicted diabetes/ smoking cessation on the NHS.

So many things can be avoided by healthy lifestyle choices. Infertility/sexual orientation cannot.

What about those whose type 2 diabetes has a genetic component? Or is in part due to maternal factors pre-birth?

[ninjasnap]

I also have PCOS/ numerous fertility issues. I may never bear a child. Is that my fault for being anorexic for 20 years? Anymore than it is someone who was obese for that long? Why is one illness "my own fault" and the other "addiction/fat shaming"??

[twelly]

I think some of the points made about other procedure are fair as their are procedures that I feel should not be on the NHS, we have scarce resources there is simply not enough money to fund all the treatment that is requested

[Eyerollcentral]

@ninjasnap

Where's the addiction then? I was an anorexic, highly vunerable partient. I didn't get help. If I want it now, my husband needs to pay for it. Fair enough? I don't expect the NHS to fund it, but who should they fund?

My gay brother? My infertile SIL? Who chooses?

At least I'd hope by not smoking/taking care of myself/paying for my own healthcare any spare sperm goes to them??

What treatment do you want the nhs to give your gay brother? He isn’t infertile from what you’ve said

[lemons44]

@Eyerollcentral by fertility treatment I mean IVF. Female same sex couples in my CCG can access IVF if they meet the criteria.

You literally said 'You don’t have a right to have the state fund it though.'

My argument is that, if people's CCG has allocated the funding and they meet the eligibility, then yes.. they do, in fact, have every right to access it. Just like you have a right to access NHS funding based on your own medical needs.

[Eyerollcentral]

@ninjasnap

I also have PCOS/ numerous fertility issues. I may never bear a child. Is that my fault for being anorexic for 20 years? Anymore than it is someone who was obese for that long? Why is one illness "my own fault" and the other "addiction/fat shaming"??

It’s not about fault. Obese people with diabetes need treatment to stay alive. Fertility treatment isn’t necessary to keep anyone alive.

[Eyerollcentral]

@lemons44

@Eyerollcentral by fertility treatment I mean IVF. Female same sex couples in my CCG can access IVF if they meet the criteria.

You literally said 'You don’t have a right to have the state fund it though.'

My argument is that, if people's CCG has allocated the funding and they meet the eligibility, then yes.. they do, in fact, have every right to access it. Just like you have a right to access NHS funding based on your own medical needs.

Fertility treatment isn’t a medical need though, that it is my point. It is a want.

[ninjasnap]

@blumppump no problem with that at all. As I've said. But my gay brother gets nothing. I, as a vulnerable MH patient, get nothing.

Not saying either is right, or wrong. But lifestyle issues can be addressed, as I have been told to (quite rightly) address.

I need to put on weight to be eligible to bear a child. Absolutely fair enough. If I can't, I'm not mentally well enough to be a parent. My point is why is the opposite not true????

[bluelogo92]

As a lesbian woman currently exploring my options some of these comments are extremely upsetting and ignorant. Obviously I can’t expect everyone to know the legalities behind private sperm donation and how wrong it can all go, particularly for unmarried same couples but it’s far from as straight forward as “use a Turkey baster, use a private donor” woman I know have exposed themselves to HIV (amongst other STIs) , dangerous situations/rape and then for the “donor” to demand parental rights which they are entitled to if the lesbian couple are unmarried. These are real cases and happen so often. No, nobody has a right to a baby and maybe it shouldn’t be NHS funded but maybe take a moment to realise that it’s such a gruelling and painful process as it is.

[EndlessTea]

@bluelogo92

As a lesbian woman currently exploring my options some of these comments are extremely upsetting and ignorant. Obviously I can’t expect everyone to know the legalities behind private sperm donation and how wrong it can all go, particularly for unmarried same couples but it’s far from as straight forward as “use a Turkey baster, use a private donor” woman I know have exposed themselves to HIV (amongst other STIs) , dangerous situations/rape and then for the “donor” to demand parental rights which they are entitled to if the lesbian couple are unmarried. These are real cases and happen so often. No, nobody has a right to a baby and maybe it shouldn’t be NHS funded but maybe take a moment to realise that it’s such a gruelling and painful process as it is.

Are fewer gay men (in the words of Owen Jones) looking for ‘broody lesbians’ now, because of the trend towards buying babies from surrogate mothers, in your opinion?

[blumppump]

@ninjasnap

@blumppump no problem with that at all. As I've said. But my gay brother gets nothing. I, as a vulnerable MH patient, get nothing.

Not saying either is right, or wrong. But lifestyle issues can be addressed, as I have been told to (quite rightly) address.

I need to put on weight to be eligible to bear a child. Absolutely fair enough. If I can't, I'm not mentally well enough to be a parent. My point is why is the opposite not true????

Because type 2 diabetes does not have the same causal mechanism as anorexia.

[SarahAndQuack]

I was reading recently about the scientists who have found they can create a mouse embryo from the cells of two male mice. As it happens, my DP works in cell culture, and when we were TTC our DD, she mentioned that she knows the theory of how you would create an embryo from two female parents. It's very hard to know how the science will develop, and there are serious moral questions to be answered, but it is possible that large parts of this debate will become obsolete, if same-sex couples can have a biological child together. IMO, IVF ought to be available to lesbian couples and to straight couples, who haven't been able to conceive otherwise, or who have a poor chance of conceiving. My thinking is that sperm donation carries no known health risks. I am not sure how I feel about surrogacy; I think is much more worrying. I think lesbians ought to have done IUI if medically recommended, but that ought to be funded. It is relatively cheap. I don't think recommending 'turkey baster' options would be ethical.

I have a huge issue with these decisions being made on the basis of sexuality rather than medical history. It results in failures of basic common sense and kindness. When I met my DP (who is a woman), I had a history of miscarriages, from a previous heterosexual relationship. If DP had been a man, my GP would have referred me for NHS treatment. She was able to refer me to the recurrent miscarriage clinic, but that was it. I have a friend in a same-sex relationship: she and her wife had six miscarriages within two years, but because they (sensibly, and following medical advice) alternated attempts to get pregnant through IUI, neither of them 'counts' as having had the requisite six attempts at IUI that her NHS trust required for IVF treatment.

As the mother to my female partner's biological daughter, I can't help feeling slightly disturbed by all the unrest over this issue. In 2023, we know that children do not develop according to some unchanging computer-programme system written in their DNA before birth. My daughter has two mothers who love her. I'm ok with that.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

@TinselAngel

God this is getting tedious. That's not what I said. I said that if you argue for anybody having a "right" to children, (eg by saying lesbians have a right to IVF because it's the only way they can conceive and therefore is necessary for "equality") then you need to think through the consequences of your argument. In particular, to be consistent you'd have to argue gay men also have a right to children which will involve increased use of surrogates. You then have to wonder where the surrogates will come from to fulfil that right and of the detrimental effect this would be likely to have on women.

I'm quoting you again because I have thought about it further.

Saying lesbians have the same right to assisted conception as heterosexual women is equality. Lesbians didn't campaign to be equal to gay men. Gay men didn't campaign to be equal to lesbians. They campaigned for the same rights as heterosexuals.

So the consistency is not in equality between lesbians and gay men. It's in gay men having the same rights as heterosexual men in a relationship, to use a surrogate to get a baby.

[Shelefttheweb]

then for the “donor” to demand parental rights which they are entitled to if the lesbian couple are unmarried.

The “donor” is the child’s father. There should not be any right to deny the child their father and genetic heritage.

[SarahAndQuack]

@bluelogo92

As a lesbian woman currently exploring my options some of these comments are extremely upsetting and ignorant. Obviously I can’t expect everyone to know the legalities behind private sperm donation and how wrong it can all go, particularly for unmarried same couples but it’s far from as straight forward as “use a Turkey baster, use a private donor” woman I know have exposed themselves to HIV (amongst other STIs) , dangerous situations/rape and then for the “donor” to demand parental rights which they are entitled to if the lesbian couple are unmarried. These are real cases and happen so often. No, nobody has a right to a baby and maybe it shouldn’t be NHS funded but maybe take a moment to realise that it’s such a gruelling and painful process as it is.

Much sympathy. Those comments frightened me too. I really don't think people understand how dangerous this is! You need to have that legal relationship with your child! And you need to feel medically safe.

[bluelogo92]

I haven’t heard this before and I personally haven’t been approached by any gay male couples and neither have any other lesbian couples I am friends with. There is an app much like tinder (swipe if you like the look of a donor and then you can match 🤮) and I did see a couple of gay male couples on there looking for surrogates but on the same app there were more heterosexual couples looking for surrogates

[EndlessTea]

@TooBigForMyBoots

I'm quoting you again because I have thought about it further.

Saying lesbians have the same right to assisted conception as heterosexual women is equality. Lesbians didn't campaign to be equal to gay men. Gay men didn't campaign to be equal to lesbians. They campaigned for the same rights as heterosexuals.

So the consistency is not in equality between lesbians and gay men. It's in gay men having the same rights as heterosexual men in a relationship, to use a surrogate to get a baby.

No, it would be equality between gay men and straight men. They should both have ‘the right’ to access women’s wombs and eggs, as lesbians and straight women have ‘the right’ to access men’s sperm.