Should IVF be available to lesbians?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

And single women? Or should assisted conception only be for infertile women in heterosexual relationships?

[Weallgottachangesometime]

I think access to fertility treatment should be equal regardless of someone’s sexuality/relationship status. Anyone with a medical issue preventing them from reproducing should be able to access medical support as appropriate to help them reproduce or address the medical issue.

Again, regardless of sexuality/relationship status, I don’t believe anyone has a right to use others bodies/body parts in order to reproduce. So I think public funding of things like donated sperms/eggs is a difficult subject for me to navigate. On balance I don’t think this should be funded.

[EndlessTea]

I don’t think the discourse of rights is at all appropriate for framing adult fertility issues at all.

I tend to agree - and for anyone, straight or gay, male or female.

But it's nuance, isn't it? Because such a view could be seen as leading to the idea that lesbians or gay men shouldn't be allowed to be parents. Many of us can still remember when lesbians, who'd been in straight marriages, were denied care or custody of their children in divorce because they were lesbians. And so on

I think this example is not about the ‘right’ to be a parent, it’s about freedom from ‘discrimination’ against homosexuals, against unfair questioning of their ‘fitness’ to be a parent because of their homosexuality. In secular society I think that is no longer an issue in divorce though, but I believe it persists in orthodox communities.

I’m still a bit fuzzy about it, but the only area I think the ‘rights’ comes into being a parent, is the right to not be subject to a forced sterilisation or forced abortion (I’m thinking about when eugenics was popular this was a thing), and the right to be free from excessive interference in family life, and once the baby is born, it’s own rights become paramount.

[EndlessTea]

when I expressed my strongly held view that surrogacy was beyond the ethical pale and should be illegal in any circumstance, he was equally convinced of the way this excluded many gay men from having their "own" DC. He saw it as a matter of rights as well.

And this is where things tip into absurdity again. A man or two men cannot make his/their own baby. It flies in the face of reality and spins way off into trans la la land.

Biology and reality itself are somehow framed as the oppressor if we start thinking that nature itself ‘owes us’ anything at all as our birthright.

It makes me think of Rumplestiltskin.

[SquidwardBound]

I don’t think it’s a slippery slope to homosexuals should not be allowed to be parents.

It’s about capability to actually produce a baby without intervention, and what kinds of intervention are acceptable.

The fact that two men cannot make a baby together is nothing to do with their suitability as parents. in fact, I think pretending it must be about really, deep down be about homophobic views of immoral people is a pretty effective cover to stop people questioning things.

It’s really problematic that discussion of children’s needs and rights to know their biological progenitors and the commercialisation of women as incubators of infants to order is dismissed on the basis that it must be homophobic. It’s not. It’s a problem whoever is doing it.

Using the notion of ‘phobia’ to shut down legitimate criticism of practices is dangerous.

[EndlessTea]

It’s really problematic that discussion of children’s needs and rights to know their biological progenitors and the commercialisation of women as incubators of infants to order is dismissed on the basis that it must be homophobic. It’s not. It’s a problem whoever is doing it.


Using the notion of ‘phobia’ to shut down legitimate criticism of practices is dangerous.

This is where we are though, isn’t it?

One of my DCs school friends in primary school was the result of surrogacy. Sweet kid. The dads were really on edge though, probably sensing the quiet judgement/pity from us parents, though we were all polite and caring and pretending not to notice the absence of mum. It would be hard for them to distinguish subtle disapproval of their choices from homophobia.

[Twoshoesnewshoes]

‘It’s really problematic that discussion of children’s needs and rights to know their biological progenitors and the commercialisation of women as incubators of infants to order is dismissed on the basis that it must be homophobic. It’s not. It’s a problem whoever is doing it.


Using the notion of ‘phobia’ to shut down legitimate criticism of practices is dangerous.’

this 👆

[Grammarnut]

EndlessTea, it's not homophobic to object to surrogacy, which is getting too much normalised. It's not homophobic or anything else to suggest that parenthood is not a right, either. I am also against surrogacy and also think parenthood is not a human right. What is going on is that those people who do think parenthood is a right and any means of achieving it is legitimate (and should be done on the NHS) are utterly surprised that their view is not a majority view.

[EndlessTea]

What is going on is that those people who do think parenthood is a right and any means of achieving it is legitimate (and should be done on the NHS) are utterly surprised that their view is not a majority view.

Yes this is it. Equally I have had quite a shock to see that a significant minority do hold that view and see it as integral to LGBT rights. I have no idea when that happened. Was it integral to ‘equal marriage’?

This lack of awareness is how we sleepwalk into dystopia. By accepting sound bites - equal this and equal that - without interrogating what the detail and the specific inequality is deemed to be, or what means to equalise is actually expected, we appear to be nodding along to everything. That’s how we have all this trans propaganda in schools ‘equal rights’, ‘diversity and inclusion’, etc.

[TheSingingBean]

Using the notion of ‘phobia’ to shut down legitimate criticism of practices is dangerous.

This, exactly.

Not only is it dangerous, it's also lazy and tiresome.

[Jabiru]

An interesting discussion.

I never knew my biological (or any other) father because my mother deliberately excluded him.

I didn’t get a choice and I feel aggrieved.

for this reason I’m pretty against surrogacy in same sex couples. So it’s based on my own experience.

A young gay man that I used to work with asked my opinion on this a few years ago. When I explained, he reported me to my manager for homophobia.

Thankfully my manager (who was also a gay man) took it no further,

[EndlessTea]

I didn’t get a choice and I feel aggrieved. 

💐 I feel for you @Jabiru

I feel so angry at all the people putting the rights of the kids last, just so they can have total control and have it all their own way.

[Eyerollcentral]

@Jabiru

An interesting discussion.

I never knew my biological (or any other) father because my mother deliberately excluded him.

I didn’t get a choice and I feel aggrieved.

for this reason I’m pretty against surrogacy in same sex couples. So it’s based on my own experience.

A young gay man that I used to work with asked my opinion on this a few years ago. When I explained, he reported me to my manager for homophobia.

Thankfully my manager (who was also a gay man) took it no further,

I think your personal experience here is so important to this conversation. We need to stop putting the wants of adults above the rights of their children.

[Weallgottachangesometime]

@Jabiru An important perspective. The right and needs of prospective children should be of utmost importance. People still seem to view babies as blank slates who they can mould into whatever they want and that biology can be disregarded.

[EndlessTea]

A school friend of mine was the result of a holiday romance and all she had of her dad was a faded little photograph of him, but it was so important to her. She carried it about and showed it to me on a number of occasions.

I find it so sad that there are going to be all these children without even a photo and a story about their absent parent. Just a cold, clinical file in the possession of the state that they get to see when they turn 18, while their dad, or mum(s), are coldly referred to as ‘donors’ or ‘surrogates’ or ‘carriers’ so that their parents’ precious feelings aren’t hurt by the truth of the situation.

[CryptoFascistMadameCholet]

Bit of a tangent but related in terms of genealogical bewilderment, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of trans identifying kids who were adopted, especially those who have been adopted internationally.

Obvs no one is officially keeping these figures but it’s notable in the parent’s groups.

I assume it’s to do with the difficulties children often experience in relation to identity formation when they are missing a big piece of their history (in the case of international adoption it’s a double whammy of missing genealogical info and missing geographic/cultural info).

not blaming anything on either the adoptive or bio parents, it’s just an unintended (possible/probable) consequence that no one could’ve foreseen but it really should be studied so that it can be mitigated as much as possible in future.

[EndlessTea]

@CryptoFascistMadameCholet

Bit of a tangent but related in terms of genealogical bewilderment, there seems to be a disproportionate amount of trans identifying kids who were adopted, especially those who have been adopted internationally.

Obvs no one is officially keeping these figures but it’s notable in the parent’s groups.

I assume it’s to do with the difficulties children often experience in relation to identity formation when they are missing a big piece of their history (in the case of international adoption it’s a double whammy of missing genealogical info and missing geographic/cultural info).

not blaming anything on either the adoptive or bio parents, it’s just an unintended (possible/probable) consequence that no one could’ve foreseen but it really should be studied so that it can be mitigated as much as possible in future.

This is so important this tangent though. Apparently 50 -ish percent of Canadian kids accessing transing services are ‘looked after’.

Identity - knowing who you are and where you are from - is so important in having a stable personality. Its foundational. Being able to make up who you are or believing that reality is meaningless would be very comforting for people with that bewilderment.

I take my hat off to adoptive and foster parents, it must be heartbreaking if you feel you can’t help a child resolve this inner chaos.

I agree it should be studied for the reason you say.

[Jabiru]

Another perspective - my cousins mother died when he was nine months old, so he never knew her. She had cancer.

Dad remarried when he was about 8. During the intervening years, grandma moved into the house to look after the (three) children of which he was obviously the youngest.

There’s a widely acknowledged feeling that this is something of a tragic scenario. My aunt died, so she’s not party to the tragedy, though she knew she was dying. The real ongoing tragedy is the fact that my cousin never knew her. His older siblings have some memories, he has nothing.

Those of us who remember her have tried to give him a flavour of her personality. It was so long ago now, there are no videos or recordings of her. He’s always wanted to know in what ways he is like her. I think this intensified when he had his own children.

So for this reason, again through personal experience, I do question deliberately depriving a baby of its mother in the case of same sex surrogacy. Either being deprived of your mother is a tragedy or it’s not, it cannot surely depend on the circumstances when the child is a baby and has no recollection of those circumstances as they played out.

I’ve expressed this view to lots of people, their response is usually ‘as long as the child has two parents and is loved, it makes no difference.’ However that seems to be their opinion, and I’m presuming that most people opining as such have not actually have any personal experience on which they can draw.

For my cousin, he grew up much loved in a house with his father and grandmother. He was ‘patented’ by male and female relatives and later acquired a stepmother.

If it really doesn’t matter that he was deprived of his mother, why does it bother him so much?

[EndlessTea]

There’s a widely acknowledged feeling that this is something of a tragic scenario. 

This is so true. It is widely acknowledged. Why is there this failure of empathy?
How is it that deliberately depriving a baby of their most important human relationships, is now something we are supposed to be celebrating?

I am sure that everyone probably knows two or three people who have that lasting pain of not knowing a parent, and I wonder if some people have hardened themselves for the sake of a neat belief system. Moral dilemmas and competing rights/interests are a headache, it’s so much easier and more comfortable to decide which side you come down on and poo poo any arguments or evidence that contradicts you.

[dimorphism]

Of course lesbians should have (and indeed do have) access to IVF.

All prospective parents should put the wellbeing of their future children ahead of their own interests. For this reason, the lesbian couples I know have either adopted or had children using sperm from male friends who are in their children's lives.

The rules around IVF and surrogacy (which I think should be banned for the most part) need to be tightened up so children at the very least have more rights than dogs, which they currently don't.

Having been through the IVF system for many years (fruitlessly), I think it needs considerably better regulation and reform. The child's interests are not centred and I don't remember the impact on the child of the various regimes being discussed once.

Incidentally I ended up having two children late in life naturally after having been told by IVF clinics that I'd never get pregnant with my own eggs (with a view to selling me donor eggs).

[CryptoFascistMadameCholet]

Incidentally I ended up having two children late in life naturally after having been told by IVF clinics that I'd never get pregnant with my own eggs (with a view to selling me donor eggs).

Every article I read and every personal story that is posting edges me closer and closer to thinking these clinics are completely predatory.

They know their customers are vulnerable and ripe for financial and (and in the case of coercive egg sharing) biological fleecing.

Must be easy to ‘upsell’ to those who desperately want to be parents and feel their options ticking away.