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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Did Rachel Reeves change anyone's mind re Labour?

110 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 13/03/2023 18:08

Apologies if there is already a thread but couldn't see one. Just got around to watching the RR interview from last week - www.mumsnet.com/news/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-puts-users-questions-to-shadow-chancellor-rachel-reeves there if anyone needs a link.

She seems to say quite clearly that Labour would protect women's spaces - and when Justine clarifies to ask if she means a woman on the basis of sex not gender, RR agrees that sex is the operative category!

I did not think we would see this from them. Does it change your mind?

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DemiColon · 13/03/2023 18:15

I suspect most will feel they need something a little more definite than one MP in an interview, given all the messaging in the opposite direction. Many don't trust even their use of words like "sex" because they feel they have been disingenuous so often.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2023 18:26

Someone posted a letter that the party are sending to voters which certainly suggests they've shifted to a more ethical and factual position. It was on the Labour Women's Declaration thread I think?

Presumably the Scottish carnage reinforced that voters were not going to accept Nandy's wishes about male rapists sharing cells with women and they've realised they're on the wrong side of history (but are never going to apologise for their previous anti women / safeguarding fuckwittery so will just quietly retreat)?

But I could be wrong - the male supremacists wield a lot of power in the party.

EpicChaos · 13/03/2023 18:28

Right under this thread, in the " Similar Threads " section, there is a link to a thread from last July-ish...
They're calling for Rachael Reeves to lose the whip!
To be fair, it seems that she has made similar terfy noises before, however, whether that's game play and just political expediency, who can say but if she wants to be believed, then she should have been stood shoulder to shoulder with Rosie Duffield imo and afaic. Other people might be forgiving that she doesn't stand up to be counted when it matters, i call it abject cowardice, you do you though.
Other than that, i can't stand her anyway, i think her attitude towards those who, through no fault of their own, find themselves in need of help, to be far below what i require of a labour party and her robotic voice gets on my nerves!

InterestingUsernameTBC · 13/03/2023 18:32

We really need MPs to be pinned down over this. When they say single sex they are often talking about everyone with the same sex on their birth certificate and they also want to bring in rules that mean that anyone can change the sex on their birth certificate. So their single sex is in fact mixed sex bodies with single sex paperwork.

ArabellaScott · 13/03/2023 18:35

when Justine clarifies to ask if she means a woman on the basis of sex not gender, RR agrees that sex is the operative category!

Glad to hear that Justine asked that question.

I'm afraid I just no longer believe Labour. They'll say that they're going to protect 'safe spaces' for women. This isn't what the EA suggests.

And given that the Haldane judgement seemed to suggest that sex and gender were interchangeable and that a GRC changes ones sex, I am not buying the Sex Fudge.

This petition will help get the subject debated:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3?page=33&reply=124613968

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/03/2023 18:42

This is the LWD's response to Starmer. The template that Labour are sending out is below.
I suspect there are some weasel words in it but at least they've been forced to recognise women's single sex spaces (through gritted teeth) . Still silent about unethical medical treatment of children of course.

labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/lwd-response-to-sir-keir-starmers-reply-to-constituents-about-sex-and-gender/

ArabellaScott · 13/03/2023 18:46

Excellent letter.

'In the meantime, we urgently ask you and Labour colleagues to note that EA2010 provides for single-sex exceptions, not “safe spaces” nor “single-sex spaces”. The term “spaces” implies that this provision is only needed in extreme circumstances, for example in prisons or refuges. But the exceptions allow all women the dignity and privacy of single-sex provision in our daily lives, and are an important underpinning for discrimination legislation.'

Floisme · 13/03/2023 19:16

I have no time for gender critical Labour MPs who leave Rosie Duffield to take the heat. However I do take my hat off to Labour Women's Declaration. As to whether this will change my mind - I don't know yet. I'm watching but I won't make any decision until I've seen their next manifesto.

Random789 · 13/03/2023 19:27

It is a small step in the right direction. But I won't trust them (or vote for them) until there is much stronger evidence than this.
Apart from anything else, it will be important for them to admit that they got this wrong.
If they try to maintan that they have always supported sex-based rights - and that hysterical or 'radicalised' women have misinterpreted them and contributed unnecessary toxicity to the debate - then I will see them as still untrustworthy, unrealistic, dishonest, stupid.

Thelnebriati · 13/03/2023 20:15

Saying 'we will protect women's spaces' while quoting the law as it is now is not a guarantee of protection for the future.

When Labour say they intend to 'streamline the GRA applicate process', what do they actually intend to do? If they just wanted to change the GRA, wouldn't they just say that? Do you think there's a risk they could change The Equality Act as well?

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 13/03/2023 20:22

@Thelnebriati so she said they wouldn't changed EA10.

Hmm!

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RubyTrees · 13/03/2023 20:22

Nancy Kelley, CEO of Stonewall, was invited by David Evans to address all party staff in a zoom only this week, further contributing to misapprehensions which many staff still hold.

Hmmm...I wonder what Nancy Kelley had to say.

Thelnebriati · 13/03/2023 20:30

she said they wouldn't changed EA10.

They could just choose to do what every other fucker does and ignore it, or pretend it says what they want it to say. There don't seem to be any repercussions for orgs like Stonewall, do there?
I was about to say I'd wait until their next manifesto, but remembered they aren't obliged to actually do anything they put in it.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/03/2023 20:51

Its all sleight of hand. SSE are allowed, but not compulsory. Also, services providers seem to be allowed to advertise something for women only and have their own definition of women. Thats bugger all use to me.

I want to know how its possible to give men female id and guarantee sse. I want the government to make it clear that the PC of gender reassignment does not mean men with GR can use womens spaces.

I wont vote for anyone until they demonstrate that they understand the practical consequences of the GRA and EqA.

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 13/03/2023 20:52

@Random789 yes that crossed my mind too. I was appalled when David Lammy made his infamous dinosaurs comment. I would have been a lot more reassured if she had even said sthg like "the party has been on a journey <insert other wanky cop out phrase of choice> but now our clear position is...."

But she just stated what sounded like a GC position... with no reference to last 3-4 y....

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ArabellaScott · 13/03/2023 20:54

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/03/2023 20:51

Its all sleight of hand. SSE are allowed, but not compulsory. Also, services providers seem to be allowed to advertise something for women only and have their own definition of women. Thats bugger all use to me.

I want to know how its possible to give men female id and guarantee sse. I want the government to make it clear that the PC of gender reassignment does not mean men with GR can use womens spaces.

I wont vote for anyone until they demonstrate that they understand the practical consequences of the GRA and EqA.

Yep.

I want someone to tell me how women get our spaces, our words, and our rights back. Without men, of any kind, being included, no matter how the men feel about it.

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 13/03/2023 20:55

I posted a thread about Dominic Raab and his position on prisons a while back. He is awful but I actually feel like I trust the Tories more on this.

Gah.... I really want to believe RR....
Feel like I have a choice between voting to screw the country even more badly or voting to screw my daughters' rights.

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ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/03/2023 21:01

Politicians think theyve said sonething profound when they talk about female, biology and women in the same sentence. But as Thelnebriati said, if they are going to ignore the fact that the EqA and GRA is a mess that doesnt make sense, they havent achieved anything.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 13/03/2023 23:27

Starmer saying that GRA reform is 'not a priority' is also a tiny bit of progress (of a sort - I actually think it does need reform, just not in the way politicians tend to mean it). Very tiny, but it's not something he'd have said a year ago.

fromorbit · 14/03/2023 08:22

Trans Rights Activists really really hate Reeves and think she will block their advance. Check out what they say about her on twitter. They are right to fear her.

Reeves knows what a woman is, she just won't admit it in full because she has what she thinks are more important priorities to sort out. The thing is Reeves whether we like it or not has the same approach of most older left women. Talk to them in private they break the trans rules. In public they feel pressure to be "nice".

Most people on Mumsnet were in that zone - the Peaking zone, the pre-Peak zone before, often for many years, we should be sympathetic to others there. What people here do not like to admit is that without a push many left women will never leave the peaking zone. If anything men are more likely to do it because there a different consequences for men and women who are not "nice". The two sexes are treated differently and also act differently, whether you think that is down to nature or nurture, or a mix that is a debate that doesn't matter right now.

What matters is Reeves probably slags off Trans ideas in private or in her own head. She knows male rapists are always male and the fact she is happy to indicate it in interviews means she thinks the mantras are dumb. Which is why TRAs hate her.

Obviously it would be better if she was like Rosie or Tonia, BUT if she was like them she might not have the second most important job in the Labour shadow cabinet. As I said she needs a push and we know who will push her. Sadly I don't think it will be anything Mumsnet says. Instead it will be the TRAs doing insane stuff or going for her hard enough that she might fully peak the same way anyone else peaks.

People in the Pre-Peak zone are still important allies to us. Because they can do stuff that peaked people can't. They can use procedure to sideline batshit ideas and no-one can call them out without looking weird, and pushing more people into the pre-Peak zone.

Make your own mind up about voting Labour and who to campaign for in the next General - that is an individual thing there are a LOT of things to consider. The most important thing is the TRA agenda inside Labour is all over the place and it is down to some of them being fanatics. Populist TRA circles online detest Starmer too and condemn him. Notice Stonewall doesn't, instead they meet with him. Because Stonewall is the real issue the most dangerous TRAs are the ones who will compromise and slowly advance. That is HOW they got the power they have now. If we want to win long term we need to be thinking like them. Get our people into power, real power, wherever we can, advance our agenda, raise questions, debate things, avoid demanding purity from people who are not ready to give it yet. I am not asking anyone to back Reeves, what I am asking is to remember that we have to avoid double standards at all costs. Do not treat potential wavering allies as set enemies, especially women, because being a women on the left is hard. Remember the alternative to Reeves is someone like Stella Cressy. Dodds, the previous shadow Chancellor, is way more confused about gender than Reeves is.

Look what happened inside the Tories. The TRAs were incredibly powerful 6 years back. Now they are broken, and part of that is down to women activists inside the party being clever, ruthless and advancing at all costs. Obviously their fight is way easier of course, but there are lessons to be learned.

Because this is about recapturing ALL the parties long term. It is going to take years. Reeves is part of the process. Because whether you like her or not, she is clearly an effective politician who will soon have a lot of power. Better with her than others inside Labour.

Alltheprettyseahorses · 14/03/2023 08:37

No. She's spoken out far too many times about cracking down hard on benefits claimants and disabled people.

Boiledbeetle · 14/03/2023 09:01

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 13/03/2023 20:51

Its all sleight of hand. SSE are allowed, but not compulsory. Also, services providers seem to be allowed to advertise something for women only and have their own definition of women. Thats bugger all use to me.

I want to know how its possible to give men female id and guarantee sse. I want the government to make it clear that the PC of gender reassignment does not mean men with GR can use womens spaces.

I wont vote for anyone until they demonstrate that they understand the practical consequences of the GRA and EqA.

I see you saved me the bother of having to type lots. 🖕what she said.

Floisme · 14/03/2023 09:01

I am very sympathetic towards ordinary women muddling through - I am one myself. However I expect more from politicians who pass laws that shape all our lives, and I think I have every right to do so. Nobody forced them to stand for public office.

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 14/03/2023 09:10

If we want to win long term we need to be thinking like them. Get our people into power, real power, wherever we can, advance our agenda, raise questions, debate things, avoid demanding purity from people who are not ready to give it yet. I am not asking anyone to back Reeves, what I am asking is to remember that we have to avoid double standards at all costs. Do not treat potential wavering allies as set enemies, especially women, because being a women on the left is hard.

I think that ^ is really interesting. I have got to a point where, from voting Labour reflexively for years and relying on The Graun for news, I now wince when I see a Labour politician on the news. I also assume they are not speaking in good faith - about women's rights or anything else. I need to check that tendency - it's insidious - because they are a broad church and you are right that we need to give the good ones some motivation to engage with GC ideas.

I am really torn, and suspect others on this board are too, between thinking 'Labour have gone so far and said so many awful things I can never vote for them again' and thinking 'but if I don't back the good ones, the whole party might be lost forever'.

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ScrollingLeaves · 14/03/2023 09:24

If she says they will uphold the Equality Act, then she needs to be clear that in order to do that, it has to be made clear in the Act, by amending it, that “Sex” in the Act is biological.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-to-debate-gender-petition-backed-by-jk-rowling-qh0h0bctk
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4534821c-bf89-11ed-b52d-512231a0c9aa?shareToken=a2be6368ec3ec1a7a1e413545f54b9d9

To sign the petition
www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4758082-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-3