Indecent exposure and Jordan Gray on Radio 4

[BaronMunchausen]

The Today presenter (Justin Webb?) on Radio 4 has just aired the connection between indecent exposure and gender ideology. While interviewing a Labour MP about the cultural acceptance of indecent exposure, he said that a lot of women were very offended when Jordan Gray stripped off on Channel 4, but Ofcom said it was ok and Channel 4 was “actually rather proud of it”. The MP kept to generalities, but it was good to hear.

Radio 4 will doubtless be inundated with complaints, but other listeners (at least those who remember Jordan Grey) will perhaps understand the implications of the demand that trans identifying males be given unfettered access to women's safe spaces.

Whoops erection! No voting required!

I've vote for a ban on flashing

Prosecution has also to prove intention to cause alarm or distress

No.

Every single thing we see leaked about WhatsApp groups from Police make me feel unsafe and reinforces the Germaine Greer point about women having no idea how much men hate us.

I don't care if it's passed off as banter. I find it hard to believe that this doesn't affect culture and the way women are treated.

I asked our Chief Superintendent about whether it would be considered indecent exposure if a man who identifies as a woman exposed their penis in a women's changing room.

Firstly the example was edited to: "a scenario where someone who was male to female transgender entered female public changing rooms and what if any offences would take place."

And then they said this:

Generally in law there needs to be an action which is a constituent element of a crime together with a knowledge or intention of wrongdoing. By way of example Exposure under s66 Sexual Offences Act 2003 requires the prosecution to prove that there was an intention to cause harassment alarm or distress.

In the scenario provided, police (and CPS) would need to be satisfied of this intention. The simple presence of this person in the changing room would not constitute an offence. Perhaps a contrast is in changing rooms generally people expose themselves (in the act of getting changed) this doesn't mean that everyone who uses public changing rooms automatically commits an offence. It is also of note that the person (male to female transgender) also has rights, there are a number of articles under the European Convention on Human Rights which would require careful consideration. What is clear is that societal changes have not caught up and where some buildings have gender neutral facilities not all do.

Why do we need to make the distinction clear, what's wrong with modesty? Not sure it's necessarily helpful making this distinction, as far as I'm concerned the social convention in the UK is that public mixed-sex nudity is not acceptable, for various reasons, be it modesty, religious sentiment, or awareness of flashing as a precursor to further sexual offending.

I don't care if I'm called a prude, as that word is often used to break down instinctive female barriers, especially in teenagers/young women, it needs to be rehabilitated. If 'slut' is something to be unashamed of, why should 'prude' be?

This is the trouble with allowing men into women’s single sex spaces (we mustn’t let them be rebranded as ‘safe spaces’ as that leaves them more open to challenge by men).

How much harder will it be to prove intent to distress if the exposed penis is in the ladies toilets or changing room and claiming every right to be there?

If a man gets his willy out in an alleyway as you walk past I would say that the intent would be fairly clear but people are allowed to get naked in a changing room.

All a flasher has to do now is take advantage of the self id policies of many places and pop into the ladies for his flashing fix.

For hate crime type offences, the test is subjective, ie what did the alleged victim feel.

Is it the case that for indecent exposure the test is objective? Effectively, what did the perpetrator feel?

Great to see this hypocrisy being exposed. And always worth remembering that Gray claims to have worked in schools talking to young primary children about gender issues on behalf of Educate & Celebrate - who many parents will find have been in their children's school for various reasons relating to 'inclusion".

Politics Live on BBC2 now- same subject

All men know that flashing their penis at unconsenting women causes alarm, distress and fear of assault. Therefore every occasion when a male displays his penis among women, regardless of his identification or presentation, is a deliberate attempt to cause alarm or distress.

And Jordon Gray mentioned on BBC too as well

BBC2 Politics Live!

How anyone can discuss Gray without also thinking of Couzens I don't know. It's all part and parcel of the same aggressive male predator behaviour.

If Couzens had been stopped when his only crime was flashing, Sarah wouldn't be dead. All those who let it slide, enable it, are allowing predatory men to escalate.

The discussions were primarily about Couzens but Gray was held up as an example of 'accepted' exposure.

I don't think it's fair to describe it as 'accepted'. It's more that society feels that it has to tolerate it because of Gray's trans identity. Anyone who doesn't feel comfortable with it knows that they will be censured for objecting. I'm sure a lot of the laughter when he did it was nervous laughter rather than accepting or condoning what he was doing.

It's not as if it's unknown for sex offenders to use environments where some casual exposure or nudity happens for unsavoury purposes.

Well exactly, the first step always has an element of plausible deniability. It's only when flasher escalate that they move to riskier locations.

That is so chilling. '...also has rights'????? Like, the rights for a man to go into a women's single sex changing room? What is your Chief Superintendent ON? Has he been trained by Stonewall??

The victim statement / testimony (sorry not sure which and not sure I can bring myself to read the grim reports again) of the woman cyclist who Wayne Couzens exposed himself to was absolutely chilling and heart breaking. It should be imprinted on the minds of every police officer and policy maker forever more.

Very strong polarisation on Twitter with many wanting Gray to be above criticism:

twitter.com/search?q=%22jordan%20gray%22%20until%3A2023-03-09%20since%3A2023-03-07&src=typed_query&f=live

Would it be accepted if a non-trans male performer did what Gray did?

Well that comedian got completely slated at the Edinburgh festival

Who is known to get his dick out and audiences go knowing this can happen

Who also incidentally called jimmy savile out iirc years before he was