Page 2 | KJK v the Police this Friday

Birdsweepsin · 2023-02-20T17:30:25+00:00

Kellie is still getting harassed by TRAs it seems. Come and support if you can at Trowbridge Police Station, midday on 24th Feb. She asked for carrots this afternoon to help pay her legal fees and she is close to 5 and a half already, more than the 3 she needed urgently. What a woman.

FOJN · 20/02/2023 22:45

I like the look of this Dr Neil MacFarlane. Excellent letter.

twitter.com/NMacFa/status/1627449405925203969?s=20

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/02/2023 22:53

twitter.com/NMacFa/status/1627746561420627980?s=20

lochmaree · 20/02/2023 22:56

Birdsweepsin · 20/02/2023 22:44

In a normal world I'd say of course you should bring the baby, but then I remembered that person from Russell Moyle Mps office shouting 'fascist' at a baby in Brighton...

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😬 maybe I'll go and watch from the car and see how things go

SinnerBoy · 21/02/2023 00:18

Birdsweepsin · Yesterday 18:1

Yes, well tsk. That's me trip-trapping over the bridge, not grabbing goats from beneath.

Stern look

OnlyTheWeedsGrow · 21/02/2023 01:58

Fabulous letter.

Thoughts will be with KJK, and those supporting her outside the interrogation rooms.

Original poster

Birdsweepsin · 21/02/2023 07:06

I'm trying to work out how any black pampers might justify organising a counter protest.

I mean, what are the optics? Especially given the police's massive failures when dealing with misogyny inside the force itself?

OP posts:

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 07:07

“Her use of language such as “men in dresses” and “fetishists” has been a proportionate means to create public interest in these issues. She does not “hate” trans-identified people: she believes their lives would be better if they desisted from such behaviours.”

I don’t believe KJK should be questioned by the police but this letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.

Wellies54 · 21/02/2023 07:12

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 07:07

“Her use of language such as “men in dresses” and “fetishists” has been a proportionate means to create public interest in these issues. She does not “hate” trans-identified people: she believes their lives would be better if they desisted from such behaviours.”

I don’t believe KJK should be questioned by the police but this letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.

Why? She's not saying men can't wear dresses, just that it doesn't magically change them into women if they do.

FOJN · 21/02/2023 07:22

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 07:07

“Her use of language such as “men in dresses” and “fetishists” has been a proportionate means to create public interest in these issues. She does not “hate” trans-identified people: she believes their lives would be better if they desisted from such behaviours.”

I don’t believe KJK should be questioned by the police but this letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.

I interpreted those remarks differently.

I don't think he's commenting on what people chose to wear but is suggesting that the best treatment for gender dysphoria is probably not wearing a costume, having surgery and pretending to be the opposite sex in the same way that we wouldn't recommend a diet for someone with a food restrictive eating disorder.

Florissant · 21/02/2023 07:36

FOJN · 21/02/2023 07:22

I interpreted those remarks differently.

I don't think he's commenting on what people chose to wear but is suggesting that the best treatment for gender dysphoria is probably not wearing a costume, having surgery and pretending to be the opposite sex in the same way that we wouldn't recommend a diet for someone with a food restrictive eating disorder.

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Good points, FOJN.

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 07:42

But not all men in dresses or those with fetishes have gender dysphoria.

BornBlonde · 21/02/2023 07:43

BoreOfWhabylon · 20/02/2023 22:22

Reproducing the letter here

Open Letter in Support of Kellie-Jay Keen, ‘Oppresively Pursued’ by Sussex Police and the CPS

From: Dr Neil MacFarlane BA MBBS MA MRCPsych

Independent Psychiatrist; GMC number 3205688; drnmblog.wordpress.com; @NMacFa

England residential address available on request

To: Officer in charge, Trowbridge Police Station, Polebarn Rd, Trowbridge BA14 7EP

16th February 2023

Re: Interview of women’s rights campaigner Kellie-Jay Keen at Trowbridge Police Station, scheduled for 23rd February 2023.

Dear Sir or Madam

I write to express my concern at what appears to be the oppressive pursuit of Ms Keen by Sussex Police and the Crown Prosecution Service, aided by yourselves. If Ms Keen is charged with any offence it is my intention to offer to provide a supportive pro bono expert witness statement, and to give evidence in person at any trial. I will also offer to provide similar support for any complaint that Ms Keen makes against Police and/or the CPS.

I have been a GMC registered medical practitioner since 1986, and a registered specialist in psychiatry since 2002. I have been an NHS consultant and worked in private practice. I have specialist training and experience in developmental psychiatry, which is directly relevant to Ms Keen’s campaigning against poorly evidenced “transgender” medical interventions. I also have experience in working with personality disordered and offender patients (including sex offenders for whom I was clinically responsible), and was an approved specialist under the Mental Health Act: that experience is relevant to Ms Keen’s campaigning for women’s dignity and safety.

I represent (because I was elected to a position within the Royal College of Psychiatrists on an election statement critical of transgenderism) the substantial number of psychiatrists who dissent from the official “transgender” policy of our professional body.

I have followed Ms Keen’s campaigning and studied several hours of her Youtube videos, including footage of what I understand to be her words spoken in Brighton last September, which have attracted complaints. I have had dialogues with individuals who have worked with her, and I have studied the objections of her critics.

In my opinion Ms Keen’s views and opinions have a strong basis in fact, and are substantially based on her own direct experience of interactions with trans identified people, particularly men. Her views are also informed by the opinions of respected professionals and academics such as the pioneering Canadian psychologist Ray Blanchard.

Ms Keen’s campaigning is reasonable and responsible, and it has been a substantial part of and influence on wider “gender-critical” campaigning of recent years, which has led to a major government review on “gender dysphoria” services for children and young people (and the closure of the leading NHS clinic), as well as the recent changes in prison policy in Scotland. Her use of language such as “men in dresses” and “fetishists” has been a proportionate means to create public interest in these issues. She does not “hate” trans-identified people: she believes their lives would be better if they desisted from such behaviours. I and many other mental health professionals substantially agree. I also agree that she is right to be concerned about links between transgenderism and child abuse.

In the context of the Wayne Couzens and David Carrick cases, the oppressive pursuit of Ms Keen risks further undermining trust in the police and the CPS, especially among women. Put simply, some of the decisions taken in her case may have been motivated by misogyny. In my opinion the belief, widespread among gender-critical campaigners, that Stonewall and many of its key supporters are substantially motivated by misogyny, is well founded. It seems very likely that Stonewall and related groups have played a key role in bringing forward the complaints against her.

This letter will be openly published. I intend to be part of the supportive protest outside Trowbridge Police Station, planned for 23rd February.

Yours sincerely

Dr Neil MacFarlane

Copied to: Sussex Police; CPS South East; Philip Wilkinson, Police and Crime Commissioner for Wiltshire and Swindon

FOJN · 21/02/2023 07:47

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 07:42

But not all men in dresses or those with fetishes have gender dysphoria.

That's the point, he's saying you can wear what you like but it doesn't make you the opposite sex.

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 08:15

Where is he saying that?

RoyalCorgi · 21/02/2023 08:26

Can people remind me what KJK is being accused of by the police? It isn't being "untoward about paedophiles" this time, is it?

Cupcakesnake · 21/02/2023 08:34

Well done to anyone who is able to attend, this fantastic woman deserves all the support she can get. Her bravery and determination is admirable. Good luck on the day KJK!

Wellies54 · 21/02/2023 08:44

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 08:15

Where is he saying that?

I'm a bit confused by the point your trying to make. KJK has never said men can't wear dresses, just that putting on a dress doesn't make you a woman. I think she has referred to transwomen as men in dresses which has been taken as offensive by TRAs. He's defending her right to say this in order to highlight the issue. There is no suggestion anywhere in the letter that people should stick to 'gender roles' for their sex which seems to be what you're implying?

Original poster

Birdsweepsin · 21/02/2023 08:48

RoyalCorgi · 21/02/2023 08:26

Can people remind me what KJK is being accused of by the police? It isn't being "untoward about paedophiles" this time, is it?

A 'public order' offense. Being investigated by a DI. Here, from about 4m40s I think

twitter.com/ThePosieParker/status/1624063558509117442?s=20

OP posts:

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 09:52

Wellies54 · 21/02/2023 08:44

I'm a bit confused by the point your trying to make. KJK has never said men can't wear dresses, just that putting on a dress doesn't make you a woman. I think she has referred to transwomen as men in dresses which has been taken as offensive by TRAs. He's defending her right to say this in order to highlight the issue. There is no suggestion anywhere in the letter that people should stick to 'gender roles' for their sex which seems to be what you're implying?

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My point is that the letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.
It reads as though men should desist from wearing dresses which, as you say, is not the point.
It the letter was all you knew about KJK you might assume that was her view.

Anyway, I can see this is derailing so carry on.

Felix125 · 21/02/2023 10:02

Do we know yet what the interview is in relation to - what if the specific offence and what are the circumstances for that specific offence?

Felix125 · 21/02/2023 10:03

*is - not if

Wellies54 · 21/02/2023 10:04

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 09:52

My point is that the letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.
It reads as though men should desist from wearing dresses which, as you say, is not the point.
It the letter was all you knew about KJK you might assume that was her view.

Anyway, I can see this is derailing so carry on.

Show quote history

I don't read it like that, but maybe because I've been following what Kellie-Jay Keen says for a while. I hope anyone who comes across this letter without knowing the background will be inspired to find out more. She is an amazing woman standing up for the rights of women and children. She promotes common sense, safe guarding and biological facts! I will be thinking of her later this week.

FOJN · 21/02/2023 10:13

jellyfrizz · 21/02/2023 09:52

My point is that the letter doesn’t sound like it was written by someone who wants to rid the world of gender stereotypes.
It reads as though men should desist from wearing dresses which, as you say, is not the point.
It the letter was all you knew about KJK you might assume that was her view.

Anyway, I can see this is derailing so carry on.

Show quote history

I posted a link to a tweet further up the thread where he calls out Matt Walsh for his misogyny and double standards. I have no reason to think Dr MacFarlane supports gender stereotypes but he's very clear that men in dresses are men in dresses and not women.

heathspeedwell · 21/02/2023 10:25

Kellie is so brave and forthright that it's easy to underestimate quite how stressful this police bullying must be for her and her family.

It's absolutely shameful that the police are being used to harass her in this way. I really hope this gets a huge amount of press coverage and that whomever it was who decided that this is an appropriate use of police time and funds is subject to an investigation.

Felix125 · 21/02/2023 10:32

A complaint has been made against her by an individual - we don't know what the specific circumstances are for that as they have not been published - but if it falls into a category of an offence, then it needs to be investigated

The police will be failing in their duty if its not investigated properly

The interview is part of that investigation

The letter by Dr Neil MacFarlane - only supports her stance and her opinions. Unless Dr Neil MacFarlane was a witness to this specific offence, then he is largely irrelevant in this inquiry

Once the investigation is completed, the police pass the case onto the next gate keeper - supervision or CPS to make a decision of summons/charge