Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Trans and losing my mind...

953 replies

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 08:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:12

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 08:05

The DD is only one, so it seems very quick for him to have possibly fathered the child in a previous relationship, become Transexual and married a man in another. 2 and half years absolute max timescale, leaving as soon as woman was pregnant and thinking child could be almost 23mths, almost 2.

And in these circumstances, would the mother be happy to let the OP co-parent the baby with the implied presence suggested by the OP?

I doubt it.

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 08:16

I doubt it too @EndlessTea
My last message was really to @Nimbostratus100 who suggested the child could have been a previous relationship. Which I'd maybe have thought too if the child was older but seems very quick at just a year.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:34

Datun · 19/02/2023 08:02

If I had a penny for every transwoman who says absolutely women's spaces should be for women only, except me of course.

For loads of different reasons too, but all claiming theirs is the only exception. From 'passing' to surgery, to possession of a GRC.

And yes, OP, do you not see the hypocrisy of objecting to self ID when you yourself are self id-ing into women's spaces?

This.

And look how we are wound back in time and get mners saying this:

A very small number of people have such severe GD that they choose to radically alter their appearance (and often bodies) to appear the opposite sex all the time.

@donquixotedelamancha this is on them, their decision, their problem, nothing to do with me. I am entirely free to not care. I don’t think living a lie and damaging ones health with drugs or mutilating oneself, is a sensible solution for mental health issues.

Like it or not there is no practical way to stop them using the toilets of the opposite sex.

Yes, male entitlement is frustrating because there is usually sod-all women can do about it when men opt to violate our boundaries to suit themselves. They have more social power and physical strength than us. I can still voice my disapproval and anger about it.

And I am supposed to worry that we look like zealous, impractical meanies if women, such as me, voice our displeasure and anger about men violating our boundaries because they have made impractical choices. don why don’t you just tell us all to #bekind and shut up - us un-cool girls who mind any and all men in our spaces.

I think the zealous, impractical meanies are the ones who make the life choices which make them feel entitled to violate others’ boundaries. I know the OP has gone to great lengths to say ‘I pass’, ‘I am GC’, ‘I only do it when it would inconvenience me to not do it’, but we have been here before. Remember DH? Then we found out DH wrote the guidelines deny women and girls single sex spaces in schools.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:35

Also, I am reminded of the fawning tone. Remember how every on FWR used to act around Kim? 🤮

Motorina · 19/02/2023 08:39

notsurewherenotsurewhy · 18/02/2023 21:34

I hear you, OP. I think it's horribly irresponsible the way some individuals and organisations have put people like you in the crossfire.

And (by way of illustrating the breadth of positions possible under the 'GC' umbrella), personally i have no issue with you using the women's toilet under the limited circumstances you set out. This is exactly the kind of concession the vast majority of women were content to make until Stonewall et al "widened the bandwidth" of what it means to be a trans woman.

I 100% agree with this. One of the invisible tragedies of this increasingly polarised debate is that the stridency of TRAs has forced women to harden their boundaries. I remember in the 90s washing my hands next to a trans woman in a loo in the British museum. She was trying very very hard to pass and, because of that, was tolerated. Those fuzzy boundaries have gone.

Tolerance for people like the OP has waned, ironically because of people claiming to make war in her name. Is bad for women, yes, but it’s also bad for transsexuals.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2023 08:39

pattihews · 18/02/2023 23:12

I'm not suggesting for a minute that the answer is trans women should use woman's loos. But then nor is the OP.

But the OP does use women's loos and expects women to accept it. The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police. No biologically male person should be tolerated in women-only facilities and OP needs to use the men's loos, as Miranda Yardley does. You can't say that you understand women's fear and then ask the rules to be relaxed for you. Not in sport, not in changing rooms, not in loos.

Or effeminate men who are gay. Maybe they should use the ladies too.

Anything the ladies can do to make them feel safe whilst not addressing the actual issue: male violence and homophobia...

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:40

Why are women so crap at sticking up for our own boundaries?

You just need one man to pull on their heartstrings and they’ll chuck our rights down the pan- with this confidence that ‘we all agree don’t we? Oops too late! I let go before you had the chance to reply sorry!- I’m sure it’ll be fine’.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:47

For the record. I always minded. Even HSTS. I pretended I didn’t mind a while back, but I did.

I mind.

And even if other women don’t mind or say they don’t mind when they do, they are not entitled to welcome you into female spaces that I might use. My “no” trumps their welcome.

TWETMIRF · 19/02/2023 08:48

When women have said that they don't feel safe in women's changing rooms if males are allowed in, we have been told that it's fine as there are locks on the doors and that we can call the police if we are attacked. Why is that not applicable to transwomen in the gents?

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 08:48

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 08:16

I doubt it too @EndlessTea
My last message was really to @Nimbostratus100 who suggested the child could have been a previous relationship. Which I'd maybe have thought too if the child was older but seems very quick at just a year.

Yes.

OhHolyJesus · 19/02/2023 08:50

Someone seeing me in a women's toilet would never think they are bumping into a male.

That's a bold claim, you can't possibly know what women think and women are all individuals and think differently. It's not a women's toilet when there are men using it, it's mixed sex and when it's mixed sex it won't just be women in there 'never thinking they were bumping into a male' (adult male = man), there will be other men in there too.

If the women don't recognise you as male (and of that you cannot know for sure, even if you asked these women outright, they may not tell you the truth of what they see) but there will be other men in there, would they also not recognise you as male?

I'm not convinced that everyone thinks like you do and I wish you no harm (as I wish no one harm) but you cannot be certain that your presence in the women's toilet doesn't cause harm.

...And using the disabled toilet isn't fair on disabled people, as you yourself recognise.

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2023 08:55

TWETMIRF · 19/02/2023 08:48

When women have said that they don't feel safe in women's changing rooms if males are allowed in, we have been told that it's fine as there are locks on the doors and that we can call the police if we are attacked. Why is that not applicable to transwomen in the gents?

Exactly. However this is framed there is the same pattern. How men feel is more important than how women feel about the situation. Women's concerns about male violence are less important than how males feel about male violence towards them. Whilst at the same time being concerned about teen girls in the gents is dismissed as irrelevant, scaremongering and bigoted.

The cognitive dissonance is unavoidable.

The issue about sex, male violence and homophobia are firmly tied together. They can't be removed just because it's convenient for one party to pretend it's not their to suit their own interests / agenda.

No males in the female toilet. Sort out male violence. Have more gender neutral facilities (in addition to, not as a replacement for single sex ones).

BiggerBertha · 19/02/2023 09:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

@EndlessTea you do know that trans people have been able to adopt for a long time, right? A trans friend of mine adopted at least 10 years ago. Just checking as you said (I think) upthread that adoption was 'unlikely'.

Datun · 19/02/2023 09:13

I cant help thinking that if the op truly did pass they wouldn't be having this crisis of conscience and be trying to recruit support for their choice of loo on mumsnet.

They'd just be getting on with it.

Cheerfully admitting using the accessible toilet is another giveaway that other people's boundaries don't apply to them.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 09:16

BiggerBertha · 19/02/2023 09:02

@EndlessTea you do know that trans people have been able to adopt for a long time, right? A trans friend of mine adopted at least 10 years ago. Just checking as you said (I think) upthread that adoption was 'unlikely'.

Show quote history

It wasn’t me that said that. However, I’d be interested in knowing if your friend is a biological male in a relationship with another biological male.

Wellies54 · 19/02/2023 09:21

It's such a tragedy that Stonewall didn't focus on ending transphobia by promoting acceptance for transwomen by men. We would all be on the same side. I absolutely defend your right to use men's toilets safely. I hope we can all work together to achieve this.

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 09:24

This reply has been deleted

Quotes a deleted post.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 09:24

I cant help thinking that if the op truly did pass they wouldn't be having this crisis of conscience and be trying to recruit support for their choice of loo on mumsnet.

Tbh, I am relieved to hear a crisis of conscience being expressed here. It is a step up from the usual breathtaking male entitlement when posters claim ‘special’ self-ID privileges.

However, knowing you are doing wrong and doing it anyway is only a small step up from not knowing you are doing wrong because you are not in the habit of considering lessers others.

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 09:26

However, I’d be interested in knowing if your friend is a biological male in a relationship with another biological male.

Why? What difference do the sexes of adoptive parents make?

BiggerBertha · 19/02/2023 09:33

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 09:26

However, I’d be interested in knowing if your friend is a biological male in a relationship with another biological male.

Why? What difference do the sexes of adoptive parents make?

Exactly @donquixotedelamancha
I assume you don't object to same sex couples adopting @EndlessTea ?

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 09:33

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 09:26

However, I’d be interested in knowing if your friend is a biological male in a relationship with another biological male.

Why? What difference do the sexes of adoptive parents make?

off the top of my head

Men can’t give birth, children are hardwired to need a mother or mother figure.

Men are statistically ten time more violent and a hundred times more sexually violent than women. Put two men in the equation and you double that risk again.

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 09:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BiggerBertha · 19/02/2023 09:36

"I don’t object to two women adopting, I do object to two men adopting."
@EndlessTea really? Why?

EndlessTea · 19/02/2023 09:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Swipe left for the next trending thread