Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans and losing my mind...

953 replies

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
TheSingingBean · 19/02/2023 00:06

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 00:02

The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police.

I don't think it's about acceptable Trans people, I think it's about practicality and persuasion.

A very small number of people have such severe GD that they choose to radically alter their appearance (and often bodies) to appear the opposite sex all the time. Like it or not there is no practical way to stop them using the toilets of the opposite sex.

There is a larger group of men who know perfectly well they don't pass but seem to enjoy violating boundaries. This group are by far the bigger threat to women and they can be policed.

If we focus on the first group we look like zealous, impractical meanies. If we keep the debate about the legal and social framework (not individuals or points of principle) needed to protect women we will win.

This.

OP, I appreciate your perspective and while I would prefer you have a third space rather than use women’s toilets I understand - as far as I can - your predicament.

TheirEminence · 19/02/2023 00:08

You may not want to answer this question, OP, but I wonder how your thinking about these issues impacts your relationship with your female child. What world would you like to build, so that she can thrive? Are there any female people in her life?

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 19/02/2023 00:13

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 00:02

The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police.

I don't think it's about acceptable Trans people, I think it's about practicality and persuasion.

A very small number of people have such severe GD that they choose to radically alter their appearance (and often bodies) to appear the opposite sex all the time. Like it or not there is no practical way to stop them using the toilets of the opposite sex.

There is a larger group of men who know perfectly well they don't pass but seem to enjoy violating boundaries. This group are by far the bigger threat to women and they can be policed.

If we focus on the first group we look like zealous, impractical meanies. If we keep the debate about the legal and social framework (not individuals or points of principle) needed to protect women we will win.

Just imagine how peaceful it could have been, if Stonewall had created an accreditation scheme for public buildings and businesses that installed separate, additional individualised facilities (toilets, changing rooms) for people who felt unsafe in the facilities for their sex. You know, instead of pressuring businesses to allow the colonisation of women's provision.

There could have been an app by now to find scheme participants. You'd open it up and use a map to find your nearest Gym/Swimming Pool/Supermarket ranked Gold/Silver/Bronze, and know that there would be private provision for you.

MenopausalMe · 19/02/2023 00:15

If I'm faced with a binary option where I have to use the men's or the women's because the disabled loos are out of order or occupied, where do you think I should go? Do you think I should use the men's? Genuine question.

YES you should use the mens. Genuine answer

Allowing some means any males who want barge in and you know this but you still seem to think an exception should be made for you.

Catiette · 19/02/2023 00:19

OP, thank you for posting and your empathy and understanding on a hugely complex issue. NB. I’ve been typing for a while, so haven’t read the most recent replies!

Re: toilets, I think the long-term answer is third spaces, but in the meantime, am very sympathetic to your situation, and honestly unsure what the answer is.

I recently had a conversation with someone I love and respect who felt that an apparent TS on TV should, on the basis of their appearance (clothing, demeanour and probable facial surgery) absolutely use the women‘s. And I wanted to agree, I really, really did - but I also felt that they didn’t appreciate quite how difficult this is.

I, too, think that a TS using the women‘s toilets in isolated instances before the current ideology took hold would have met with much more sympathy. But now that women are, arguably, fighting for the very existence of these facilities, with the vulnerability of transwomen in the gents‘ a key weapon wielded against them, conceding any ground at all can feel very risky indeed from a strategic perspective, as well as taking an emotional toll. I think this is reflected in some of the replies you’ve received.

I also think that men can struggle to fully understand women‘s experience of their own physical vulnerability. I’ve seen this before in men’s comments on this issue. But to me, a petite female, it’s so distressingly simple. The appearance of the person on TV - and whatever degree of commitment to transitioning it suggested - can’t change the fact that their physical size and associated strength, and potential to be fully intact, mean they almost certainly present a considerably greater threat to me, much as any man would than a female does. Typically, I’ll be conscious of that. In this case, the voice would have made their sex clear.

Different women will respond to this differently. Some won’t mind. But many will experience some degree of fear at this, and that fear is legitimate.

It honestly scares me in itself sometimes how blind men seem to be to our own reality - lived experience! - in this respect. Personally, I do tend to avoid being alone in small, enclosed spaces with total male strangers. I’m outgoing, confident, speak my mind - and I’m also entirely rational in this personal choice. It’s unlikely to happen - but why make it likelier?!

The last time I was in a lift with a man, he made me feel so threatened I’ve not got in a lift alone with a man since. And do you know, all that he ever did was look at me - just as Miriam Cates described in the H of C. But that looking functioned as an expression of what we both knew - what every woman knows every time she’s in an intimate space with a male stranger. And that is, quite simply, that it‘s almost entirely up to him what happens next in that situation. She has no meaningful power. She’s totally reliant on his good intentions. The next move is up to him.

And yes, again I feel compelled to say, NAMALT, it’s a hundred-to-one etc. etc. etc. But when I’m heading into middle age and can still think of four times men have, quite unambiguously, sought to intimidate me in a very public space in the past 6 months (and you remember every single instance like this, you really do, whether you laugh or feel angry or get that horrible bolt of terror that almost all women know), I find it astonishing that women are in the position of having to explain the need for our spaces - to prove the legitimacy of this frustrating, exhausting lived experience.

So, OP, I want to welcome you in, I genuinely, truly do. I feel for you, and love that you’ve reached out to this site, and am anxiously hoping the replies appearing as I’ve been typing this out on my phone are respectful and empathetic. You deserve to feel safe. And so do we. And in the absence of a concerted effort to advocate for third spaces by organisations that are, instead, seemingly working to make you, and us, less safe and comfortable, I don’t know what the answer is…

So that’s probably all a bit pointless to type, but helped me clarify my thoughts at least!

At any rate, very best wishes to you as we all continue to navigate this minefield.

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 00:20

Op how would you feel if your DD or your mother were assaulted by a man in women's clothing in the ladies?

Partly bescause she thought that was normal so didn't guard herself?

JacquelinePot · 19/02/2023 00:27

donquixotedelamancha · 19/02/2023 00:02

The argument seems to be that some people are acceptable trans people and others aren't. No one can tell the difference and women shouldn't be put in the position of having to judge and police.

I don't think it's about acceptable Trans people, I think it's about practicality and persuasion.

A very small number of people have such severe GD that they choose to radically alter their appearance (and often bodies) to appear the opposite sex all the time. Like it or not there is no practical way to stop them using the toilets of the opposite sex.

There is a larger group of men who know perfectly well they don't pass but seem to enjoy violating boundaries. This group are by far the bigger threat to women and they can be policed.

If we focus on the first group we look like zealous, impractical meanies. If we keep the debate about the legal and social framework (not individuals or points of principle) needed to protect women we will win.

Who gets to say who "passes"?

I would expect many of those people who think they pass believe that because women aren't usually in a position to challenge them. They merrily believe that everyone thinks they're female. In reality, most women wouldn't risk confronting such a person.

Helen Joyce makes a useful analogy: when the GRA was passed it was for the vanishingly rare number of people with crippling dysphoria. They were accomodated* in a way akin to witness protection - such small numbers, no harm done. Now we're in a position where anyone is what they say they are and can do whatever the hell they want. It's no longer a tiny number of people. We can't accommodate every man who wants in.

I'm at the point where I don't want to accommodate any man.

*Not that anyone ever thought to ask if we were OK with this.

scratchedbymycat · 19/02/2023 00:35

bluepetergeneration · 18/02/2023 21:07

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Thank you for speaking up. I wish more transgender women who saw through it all would speak up, but I understand it takes huge courage. I believe there are probably many of you - I just really wish you all wouldn't let the TRA narrative dictate what 'trans' is and what trans people need. Vulnerable women need all the support they can get.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 19/02/2023 01:07

If no surrogate, i'd be assuming your DH is a transman.

This is exactly the kind of concession the vast majority of women were content to make until Stonewall et al "widened the bandwidth" of what it means to be a trans woman

Women weren't asked about this 'concession'. It was forced on us and is the cause of the situation we are in now.

You can't allow 'some' men in. It's all or nothing.

LemonadeSunshine · 19/02/2023 01:09

ChewtonRoad · 18/02/2023 22:11

Do you think I should use the men's?

Yes. You are a male-bodied person - a man - and should use the men's toilets.

The single sex spaces for women - adult human females - are not yours for the taking.

It's not complicated. Humans cannot change sex and women's rights are not yours to take because you think you pass. You don't.

Women know the sex of those around them. What we do with the information depends on the circumstances, but you are not welcome to try it on by insisting on using women's single sex spaces.

Why not make efforts to have men accept you for who you are? You've made a life for yourself and that's great, but your safety isn't more important than mine or any other natal woman.

Exactly this!

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/02/2023 01:35

I have chosen to live my life as far as I can without having to interact with men as far as this is possible. Through experience I know that all men could overpower me however they present. As we women we are always on guard, and for that reason , women only facilities are essential. I made a choice about not wanting men in close contact. Why is my choice less valid than yours? I think you should be either campaigning for separate facilities, or ideally trying to change other mens behaviour. We have to plan our lives around the possibility of male violence, and we are no longer prepared to compromise . Our boundaries are important. Please respect them

MeanCanadianLady · 19/02/2023 04:35

You are very brave @bluepetergeneration thank you for standing with us. I can’t speak for all gender criticals but I personally have no issue with trans people in general. Much like you said it’s the trans activists that are the problem. You are doing the right thing. I’m so sorry that you and your family are caught up in the middle of it all. Trans people are getting hurt by self ID too. That’s why we are fighting for others to wake up. I welcome you into our circle. I watch ms blair white and buck angel regularly. It is a relief and a good reminder that that’s trans people are not a monolith. You are all individuals with minds of your own. Don’t ever let anyone take that away from you. ❤️💐

BellaAmorosa · 19/02/2023 05:06

@bluepetergeneration
I'm glad you accept that you have not changed sex.
You should always use the facilities appropriate to your sex. If you can use a cubicle in the women's toilets you can use a cubicle in the men's toilets. Your safety is not our responsibility.
Campaign for an additional space if you see male violence in toilets as a serious issue. Just stay out of the women's facilities in the meantime.

Nimbostratus100 · 19/02/2023 07:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

we are talking about a man here, men father babies, I dont see why people are surprised by this

MrsJamin · 19/02/2023 07:12

What sex is your DH, @bluepetergeneration ?

QueenHippolyta · 19/02/2023 07:32

I remember 11 years ago a very effeminate gay male acquaintance (I'm Lesbian) going on happily about gays like him and trans-identifying men using women's bathrooms to feel safe.
I told him frankly women didn't want him or TIMs there period. Women like female only places for safety and socializing.

I told him to start organizing with other gay men who have powerful networking to change male bathroom culture.
Gentle Reader: he blocked me.

OnlyTheWeedsGrow · 19/02/2023 07:35

I agree, @Whatsnewpussyhat - I immediately thought other parent must be TIF.

WarriorNun · 19/02/2023 07:36

@bluepetergeneration

I would appreciate you focussing your efforts into writing to mps about this. Especially if they're labour or green. Join one of the parties and speak up even.

Whilst I appreciate your post for the lurkers who think we are evil vipers, We don't really need to know NATWALT.

There are TS who take a stand. Miranda Yardley is back on twitter. Seven Hex lobbied the Scot's parliament. Go sort the twats out.

QueenHippolyta · 19/02/2023 07:37

Sorry that was in 2019, 4 years ago. We'd just finished a small group Buddhist retreat together.
Compassion for thee but not for me...

Blister · 19/02/2023 07:49

OP you need to take this fight to the men's. If you have energy to use the ladies, spend it on making the men's safe for you to use.
Having watched a young girl look up to her dad as the better version of woman, you are truly going to end up telling your daughter she'll never be good enough as there are things she just won't be able to do.
I admire how much you've held onto reality but you do also have a way of just 'using' the women in your life. I don't have a better verb. When push comes to shove, you are more important than their safety or dignity...
This is the same thing you can see in your community but in its extreme version unfortunately...
Keep up the good fight, I'll back you up but please remember women are not a safety net.

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 07:52

Nimbostratus100 · 19/02/2023 07:10

we are talking about a man here, men father babies, I dont see why people are surprised by this

@Nimbostratus100
He may have fathered the child but who mothered the child?
The Op is married to a husband who is also presumably male, although could be a transmale and actually a woman.

But how confusing is that for a child, my 'mum' is actually my father and my 'dad' is actually my mother who birthed me.
Or the two men used a surrogate. The egg and womb must have been from a female.

Or maybe it's more straightforward and the child was adopted.

Nimbostratus100 · 19/02/2023 07:56

I suspect that he fathered the child in a previous relationship- I dont expect it is any more complicated than that - could be wrong of course

AlecTrevelyan006 · 19/02/2023 07:59

Man here :)

Im always puzzled by the idea that a trans woman would get attacked if they used a mens toilet.

The truth is that if a man sees a woman in the toilet the first thing he’ll do is check that he’s in the right one. If he is the mens then he’ll most probably just ignore the woman, while perhaps thinking ‘that’s a bit weird’. Occasionally a man might say ‘alright love I think you’re in the wrong toilet, the women’s is next door’.

The unwritten in men’s toilets is, speak to no one, don’t make eye contact, do your business and get out as quick as you can. Not because we’re scared of being attacked but because we don’t toilets for socialising.

Datun · 19/02/2023 08:02

If I had a penny for every transwoman who says absolutely women's spaces should be for women only, except me of course.

For loads of different reasons too, but all claiming theirs is the only exception. From 'passing' to surgery, to possession of a GRC.

And yes, OP, do you not see the hypocrisy of objecting to self ID when you yourself are self id-ing into women's spaces?

Sugarfree23 · 19/02/2023 08:05

The DD is only one, so it seems very quick for him to have possibly fathered the child in a previous relationship, become Transexual and married a man in another. 2 and half years absolute max timescale, leaving as soon as woman was pregnant and thinking child could be almost 23mths, almost 2.

Swipe left for the next trending thread