Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

I’m quite polite in real life but I have a really good glare and a sharp set of elbows at a jumble sale.

Not really. That only works if the person you are talking to is on your wavelength. A TRA definitely isn't, and a trans women might not be but could be getting there (like the OP) etc.

I posted again in good faith because I am not intentionally 'not answering a question' and didn't want to appear to 'flounce off'. But I shouldn't have because, it's too bruising and pointless and I'm not able to handle it well.

This is no longer about the 'question' for me at all, but about the almost incomprehensible personal attack responses. Really unpleasant. It has been one hell of an eye opener for me.

Oh, I'm much worse in real life. [unpleasant grin emoji] The problem with real life is there is no backspace button, so you don't have a chance to proof-hear what you were going to say, and change it.

Also, one must account for all my grudges, petty resentments, and general desire to feast on human misery.

That was to @ArabellaScott 's questions.

Thanks. So what would you propose? What do we say to people like the OP who still plan to use women's spaces even though they know women don't want them to?

And if you've had enough discussion and would rather have a cup of tea in the sunshine, that's totally fine, don't feel obliged to respond. I'm just curious.

@scratchedbymycat tell me, is this the kind of person we should be conciliatory to? Asking for a friend.

Charley

I can put money on the fact that although many of us here are self confessedly evil bastards, nobody wants you to be upset, scratched.

I’ve been on the receiving end of a thread bashing. It’s horrible 💐

if it’s making you feel shit, go and do something else. The feeling will fade and you’ll be back. No one can stay away from Mumsnet forever!

i will say that it seems to me you were trying to tone police others

like most women I’ve been told I’m too angry to get my message across etc and I can’t say I like it much

No one can stay away from Mumsnet forever!

I AM.

And I can tell you that the people on this board have done a spectacularly good job of profoundly upsetting me, even though one should not admit that. But there you go ...

Social media’s a funny thing innit?

I for one am glad you’ve stayed around Scratched, and appreciate your efforts to explain your perspective.

I’d be disappointed if any GC posters felt unable to contribute to discussions here. Isn’t there room for all of us? What unites us is so much greater than what divides us.

You’ll be back Nic, you’ll be back

Instead of sneering at any MNers on the board who speak English as a second language (which was very xenophobic btw), what about making your posts accessible? You could at least tell me if I was on the right track.

I apologise. I didn't see this post or I would have responded.

Yes, I can see it could be construed as xenophobic, but I said it in the context of "ripped into". This phrase is common political England speaking parlance in my opinion, and I wondered if the person who saw it as a literal reference to actual disembowelling didn't speak English as a first language and was literally translating it. That's all.

I see some posters are still trying to point out that you called me 'odd' and you make a comment about my language skills. I realise that you don't like my methods. I don't believe I have personally made these sorts of attacks on you. But this thread has shown just how differently people perceive things.

I do consider being called 'odd' and having my language skills questioned to be personal attacks. Being told I tone police, yes, I do. I point out where posters are using shaming tactics to silence women. I am not 'chasing people off the board'. Most of the time, I encourage the posters to engage positively and to stop the negative generalisations and the personal attacks.

Being told I am repetitive and that I keep coming back to have something explained. Absolutely I do that. I know I do it. I am also the person who reads the fucking links and asks endless questions about inconsistencies.

Would you like me to confess to any other things that you think fall under the 'odd' label?

Maybe you can go back and read my posts and tell me exactly how I 'personally attacked' you that deserved you calling me odd and saying I had a language issue?

To be fair, @scratchedbymycat i have only heard “ripped into” a in the context of being given a stern bollocking. I E “ the RSM ripped into the private”., or in the context of the publisher ripped into the manuscript and tore it apart”. So yeah, if someone is accusing other posters of ripping into them, I’d expect them to be able to back that up. It’s not what’s happened on the thread though, although you may perceive it that way if you’re not used to robust disagreement.

Okay that's my paragraph you've highlighted.

I think what you're not getting is we have seen these men come on here a thousand
times. And it always follows the same pattern. Albeit some are more abusive than others.

None of them agree to keep out of women's spaces.

And they either get deleted, or flounce. Always.

They are not coming on here to find a compromise or a solution. They are coming to try and dominate. Sometimes in a passive aggressive way. Sometimes just aggressive.

Debbie Hayton writes, apparently supporting women, in MSM. Debbie has been asked hundreds of times whether they will address the still standing schools guidelines they wrote that people like Debbie must have access to women's toilets.

They never, ever have.

Because they still want it. Debbie, the OP, the other tw posting on here.

If transwomen didn't want access to women's facilities, they wouldn't bother coming on here and asking us any bloody questions about it, they just wouldn't access them.

it's a pointless waste of time trying to persuade a trans person, or a trans activist. If they are arguing with you, they already know what they want.

I completely agree about trying to persuade fence sitters, or people who don't get the problem, yes, that is very definitely a way forward. But this thread was not about that.

Maybe that was the problem. If you had started a thread asking questions, you would've got a different response. Because it's a different issue.

Telling people to be kind to someone who has just reiterated that they will still use women spaces won't down well.

It especially doesn't go well when women can see the manipulation involved in the opening post which involves trying to leverage women's socialisation to be kind.

We are all completely inured to that.

I think by the time posters were accusing the OP of misogyny construed by the fact he had a child, the phrase 'ripped into' fit perfectly. That felt intensely personal and attacking in nature: ripped into. That's off the top of my head, but it was a stand out moment for me.

And yes scratched I do welcome you on the bench because despite all this, I encourage anyone who wants discuss on these topics to have discussion on these topics.

I am happy to keep repeating it, everyone is welcome. And on many things we may well agree and something we won't. And that is human nature.

I pointed out you were using what I (and others) considered inflammatory language which you disagree with. You don't like being 'tone policed' which is exactly what I was doing, yet your posts were being openly interpreted as doing just that yourself.

So of course if you want to stick around then you are welcome. No one will give you special treatment because you think you 'fit in' or you 'don't fit in' and no one should.

I actually posted this on page 2.

I'd like lurkers to think about it. Google "corrective rape" if you haven't heard of it. It is what some men do to women who transgress their social role. Particularly lesbians in countries more homophobic than our own, and also crossdressing women who get caught.

I didn't accuse posters of ripping into me, although they did. I used the words wrt the OP leaving the thread: posters ripped into him.

I wouldn't describe what happened on this thread as 'robust disagreement'. It was something, but not that. There's a difference between disagreeing over issues and trying to make a point via a string of personal insults.

As far as I can see, and as I have pointed out… I don’t have a PHD, just anA level in English, the posts regarding misogyny were when posters assumed the OP had used a surrogate as a gay couple (references to DH) etc. surrogacy is misogynistic therefore yeah, I can see why posters would say that. The rest of the posts were mainly telling him to use the mens facilities as he is male. There was no ripping into. Do you not think women take it personally when a male comes on and says he knows it upsets women to have males in female spaces but he’s going to do it anyway? Don’t you think that’s misogynistic? Ignoring the needs and opinions of women to make himself comfortable?

As far as I can see, and as I have pointed out… I don’t have a PHD, just anA level in English, the posts regarding misogyny were when posters assumed the OP had used a surrogate as a gay couple (references to DH) etc. surrogacy is misogynistic therefore yeah, I can see why posters would say that.

Can you see why the OP might have experienced it differently?