Page 23 | Trans and losing my mind...

bluepetergeneration · 2023-02-18T21:07:36+00:00

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that. I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say. I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'. The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is). I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you. Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 16:53

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 16:46

As I perceive it - the OP was open and honest and has stated that they do use women's toilet at present, but only when no other viable options are available ( yes, they could use the men's, but would feel even more uncomfortable doing so).

Uncomfortable? You seem very concerned that the OP shouldn't feel 'uncomfortable', but the fact that this male person is in the women's toilet could make any of the women and girls in there feel not just uncomfortable, but also unsafe. Why do you save all your sympathy and concern for this one male person and seem not to care at all about all the women and girls who this male's actions affect?

No, you've got me wrong. I'm trying to understand the history of transsexualism, the total picture, and the people involved in that picture.
In order to be able to move forward, as I see it, we have to accept what has gone on before ( not like or agree with it), then work on redrawing the map( in the light of radical trans activism) so that going forward everyone knows where the lines are.

Helleofabore · 21/02/2023 16:57

Divineuterus · 21/02/2023 16:23

This man parades as a woman in women's spaces, I am appalled and do not see why us women should be put at risk.

There are, as we know many other men posing as woman, coercing our young people to take life changing hormones which will damage their fertility forever!

An example of which is this man I met at Christmas in a band Stolen Peace near Manchester. The band was okay the usual quality of cover band you know. I went to use the loos and there he was bold as brass.

I later find out he wears women's clothes through the day and says he is called Marianne giving hormones and letters for surgery to children at a company called GenderGP.

So sorry you are wrong to be in woman's spaces

What the fuck!!!

So their day job is the Marianne (we know who) from Gender GP but switches to 'man mode' presentation to play in a band?

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 16:57

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 16:48

Yeah actually. I had to take a disposable camera into the women's toilets and take a picture of myself in the mirror. Sorry but it's the gender identity clinic rules, From my understanding real-life experience is no longer a requirement to transition

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So a woman wanting to be a man would have to take a photo of herself in the men's. I can't imagine that going down well with the men in there. Did they consider what danger they might be putting those women in?

Or did they only think about the men who want to be women and thought it was OK for a man 'presenting as a woman' to take pictures of himself in a women's toilet with no consideration for the women in there? It's bad enough that they were encouraging male crossdressers to use women's toilets, but asking for photos...

When I mentioned selfies, I thought the answer would be 'of course not'. But this is a sexist men's rights movement which has never considered women at all.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 21/02/2023 16:59

I'm loving the idea that men have to take Polaroids of themselves close to sanitary bins to prove that they are committed to being a lady.

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:02

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 16:57

So a woman wanting to be a man would have to take a photo of herself in the men's. I can't imagine that going down well with the men in there. Did they consider what danger they might be putting those women in?

Or did they only think about the men who want to be women and thought it was OK for a man 'presenting as a woman' to take pictures of himself in a women's toilet with no consideration for the women in there? It's bad enough that they were encouraging male crossdressers to use women's toilets, but asking for photos...

When I mentioned selfies, I thought the answer would be 'of course not'. But this is a sexist men's rights movement which has never considered women at all.

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The requirement for real-life experience was the same for trans men and trans women you had to demonstrate that you were presenting as the opposite sex in day-to-day life to be able to transition.

Back then a lot of trans people fought for real-life experience to be removed from the criteria to be allowed to transition. I personally believe real-life experience is wrong. A diagnosis of gender dysphoria and a desire to transition should be enough in my opinion.

Helleofabore · 21/02/2023 17:04

"Someone is either female or not, a woman or not. If the government give you a certificate with 'female' on it, but at the same time, say there are exceptions to you being female. Do they really think you are female?"

Nope.

And the dissonance clanging so loudly in a person's head at that, and realising each day it is getting louder, must be very distressing (still not women's problem to resolve!!!)

Convincing yourself that supposedly the 'government' believes your claim, but then thinking logically about it means you realise that they don't really. And then this is repeated over and over every single day, with even the briefest of interactions.... Fuck! the government has allowed this. Lobby groups have forced this!

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 17:10

BellaAmorosa · 21/02/2023 16:50

@NotHavingIt
As I perceive it - the OP was open and honest and has stated that they do use women's toilet at present, but only when no other viable options are available ( yes, they could use the men's, but would feel even more uncomfortable doing so).

In other words, the OP does have another viable option, but prefers not to make use of it.

The OP states they would like to see third spaces/gender neutral facilities going forward ( in addition to single sex spaces) so that their needs could be met without compromising women's needs for privacy and dignity.

And in the meantime, the OP will continue to use the wrong sex toilets with no regard to women's objections.
No.

You say that , but unless the law is redrawn and the lines made far clearer going forward then that is likely to continue to happen.

There needs to be a new, clear legal ruling, made very explicit and public, going forward - that will then remove any false assumptions that people may be operating under.

Third spaces, services and categories will also be required. It is not what the radical genderists want, of course, but it is the only solution going forward.

ArabellaScott · 21/02/2023 17:12

Righthandcider · 21/02/2023 16:49

Quite.

Women who have lived their lives as actual females do tend to be able to see why 'we' need a blanket ban @Bathhy.

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Yep.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 21/02/2023 17:12

Ive heard of therapists saying men should go out 'dressed as women' to know that thats what they really want, and to understand the reality of other people's reactions.

Ive never heard that they want actual photos of inside of womens toilets. If true, therapists were encouraging men to behave inappropriately.

And you wonder why we question the legitimacy of the whole process.

TinselAngel · 21/02/2023 17:15

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 16:48

I later find out he wears women's clothes through the day and says he is called Marianne giving hormones and letters for surgery to children at a company called GenderGP.

So 'Marianne' isn't a transsexual, as claimed on the GenderGP site, but just a male transvestite in a wig and a dress?

Part time cross dressers are a take as old as time.

Dr Hayton wrote guidelines saying they should be allowed in the Ladies toilets at staff parties.

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 17:15

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 16:48

Yeah actually. I had to take a disposable camera into the women's toilets and take a picture of myself in the mirror. Sorry but it's the gender identity clinic rules, From my understanding real-life experience is no longer a requirement to transition

Show quote history

Which clinic was this, if you don't mind me asking? And when was this?

I think many people would be very surprised to hear this. It doesn't sound to be in accordance with the current law. It sounds unethical.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 21/02/2023 17:22

Which clinic was this, if you don't mind me asking? And when was this?

Disposable camera's are very 1997, but the GRA didnt come in until 2004. Unless by 'transition' they mean something else.

SeasonsHeatings · 21/02/2023 17:27

How do you "present female" and when younger "look a bit male"

What do those things mean?

I wonder if I am presenting female enough when I go out in "mens" jeans and trainers. Or am I then presenting male 🤷

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:29

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 17:15

Which clinic was this, if you don't mind me asking? And when was this?

I think many people would be very surprised to hear this. It doesn't sound to be in accordance with the current law. It sounds unethical.

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This was over 25 years ago. I don't want to name the gender identity clinic by name because I still live in the area. But the gender identity clinics back then were very unethical and abusive.

They would phone your employer and ask if you were living as a woman and they would do the same to family and friends. They didn't care if they outed you or not and would make you jump through numerous degrading and dehumanizing hoops, I was forced to describe my sex life in intimate detail, Talk about lingerie and what types of lingerie I wear or if I wear any, etc etc

I'm very grateful that gender identity clinics of today are far more ethical and treat trans people with far more respect now.

Divineuterus · 21/02/2023 17:30

Seems that way.

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 17:32

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 21/02/2023 17:22

Which clinic was this, if you don't mind me asking? And when was this?

Disposable camera's are very 1997, but the GRA didnt come in until 2004. Unless by 'transition' they mean something else.

I think the real life test was required before genital surgery (I'm sure @Bathhy can confirm if this is what is being referred to).

Another requirement, as I understood from a transsexual posting on here a few years ago, was that the person undergoing this surgery had to sign a document confirming that they understood that following surgery they wouldn't have actually changed sex, and that the surgery was purely cosmetic.

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 17:33

I'm very grateful that gender identity clinics of today are far more ethical

Sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case. GIDS doesn't seem to have been operating in a very ethical manner.

TinselAngel · 21/02/2023 17:34

They would phone your employer and ask if you were living as a woman and they would do the same to family and friends.
Possibly your wife then, which seems only fair.

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:35

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 17:32

I think the real life test was required before genital surgery (I'm sure @Bathhy can confirm if this is what is being referred to).

Another requirement, as I understood from a transsexual posting on here a few years ago, was that the person undergoing this surgery had to sign a document confirming that they understood that following surgery they wouldn't have actually changed sex, and that the surgery was purely cosmetic.

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Yes, you actually have to sign multiple forms along those lines throughout the process.

beastlyslumber · 21/02/2023 17:35

I don't care if a man feels uncomfortable in the gents or if he has a certificate. I don't care. He's still not a woman and I don't want him in the women's loos.

No exceptions.

I don't care if that upsets anyone.

BellaAmorosa · 21/02/2023 17:36

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 17:10

You say that , but unless the law is redrawn and the lines made far clearer going forward then that is likely to continue to happen.

There needs to be a new, clear legal ruling, made very explicit and public, going forward - that will then remove any false assumptions that people may be operating under.

Third spaces, services and categories will also be required. It is not what the radical genderists want, of course, but it is the only solution going forward.

Show quote history

Weird response. I was talking about the OP's behaviour. They don't need the law to change or third spaces to become a reality in order to choose to do the right thing now - stop using women's spaces.

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:39

TinselAngel · 21/02/2023 17:34

They would phone your employer and ask if you were living as a woman and they would do the same to family and friends.
Possibly your wife then, which seems only fair.

I was only 20 at the time so I wasn't married But the gender identity clinic did phone my boyfriend which we had a big laugh about at the time.

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 17:40

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:35

Yes, you actually have to sign multiple forms along those lines throughout the process.

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So you signed them, yet you still think you're female.

Did you understand them?

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:41

OldCrone · 21/02/2023 17:40

So you signed them, yet you still think you're female.

Did you understand them?

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I said I'm legally female, I don't actually believe I'm biologically a woman

NotHavingIt · 21/02/2023 17:42

Bathhy · 21/02/2023 17:29

This was over 25 years ago. I don't want to name the gender identity clinic by name because I still live in the area. But the gender identity clinics back then were very unethical and abusive.

They would phone your employer and ask if you were living as a woman and they would do the same to family and friends. They didn't care if they outed you or not and would make you jump through numerous degrading and dehumanizing hoops, I was forced to describe my sex life in intimate detail, Talk about lingerie and what types of lingerie I wear or if I wear any, etc etc

I'm very grateful that gender identity clinics of today are far more ethical and treat trans people with far more respect now.

Show quote history

Was this clinic in Britain? Was it accredited by the government or any sort of regulatory body?

I'm personally interested in the ethics of requiring males to take photos of themselves in women's spaces. It also sounds very voyeuristic and wilfully transgressive in more ways than one.