Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Well to get a gender recognition certificate you have to use women's spaces.

The gender identity clinics back then wouldn't have let you transition If you didn't have ”real life experience” which meant presenting as a woman publicly and living as one. I actually had to give the gender identity clinic pictures of me and my boyfriend at the time with me presenting as a woman

@BellaAmorosa

Why should we be grateful that they want to talk reasonably about women making special concessions for their benefit and to our disbenefit? What's in it for us? What are they offering?

Again, in no way ever am I suggesting women make concessions. Please.

What's in it for us? TW phoning radio phone ins and telling millions of listeners that TRAs are barking mad and don't speak for them. I think that's powerful. They're unlikely too if they don't understand our position properly though. Sturgeon could have done with listening to a few of these voices. But I don't think those voices will speak up if ... as I said all above. I'm going to stop now though.

Please don't use women's spaces. Your presence can trigger PTSD in victims of dv, or sexual assault. It excludes some religious women. It inspires anxiety, fear, and discomfort in many others.

We do not consent.

@scratchedbymycat I'm still failing on responding directly to messages. I'll figure it out at some point 😂

Anyway, yes. Absolutely to the "silent voices in the middle" needing to speak up. So far, all of us who have done so on this thread (you, me, the OP and some others - and Debbie Hayton outside of this thread) have all come in for a bit of a bashing but I guess that's to be expected. It won't shift my position though as I firmly believe that the answer lies in listening to the nuances.

I realised one more summary point (to add to my previous 4) that gets opened up if gender dysphoria is acknowledged as a mental illness is:

5. "gender identity" can be removed as being a "fact". That doesn't detract from helping anyone with gender dysphoria, as per my previous points. However, it does cut out a lot of unhelpful double speak. came from another thread on the board and is a very interesting watch.

I have done a lot of research before finally speaking up, primarily in to autism and adolescent gender incongruence/dysphoria, and I've realised through that research how interconnected it all is - women's spaces, women in sport, children questioning their gender.

Well to get a gender recognition certificate you have to use women's spaces.
So what is the point of you saying you will continue to use them now because you have a GRC when in fact you have been using them all along?

It is always a straight forward demonstration in the end that explains why women are finished with debating or with trying to nicely reach agreement.

The answer from male people is always this.

'I want and need to use female spaces, it works for me, I see myself in this way, I will be using them'.

'This excludes some women from having access to any spaces at all'.

'That's unfortunate, but I'm all right Jack. Those women will just have to face up to the stress/distress that I personally am not willing to, and either use the space with me in it or go without any space'.

Spot the male privilege and power.

No. No males. No legal fictions. I am not supporting the exclusion and subordination of females on a sex class basis as a biological birthright of lesser humanity, while at the same time indulging anyone in the belief that a male can change sex.

Anyway, yes. Absolutely to the "silent voices in the middle" needing to speak up. So far, all of us who have done so on this thread (you, me, the OP and some others - and Debbie Hayton outside of this thread) have all come in for a bit of a bashing but I guess that's to be expected. It won't shift my position though as I firmly believe that the answer lies in listening to the nuances.

I can't see that anyone has had a 'bashing' on this thread, tbh. There's just been disagreement.

Anyway, yes please do continue to speak up.

For one thing, could you please clarify if by 'nuance' you mean that some males should be afforded the right to use women's spaces?

Anyway it's good to have another live example of "thanks ladies I've listened to your concerns but fuck you, I'm going to use your spaces anyway" as mentioned previously in the thread.

Perfect time, Bella!

I think the first link is this one though:

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

I have a gender recognition certificate so I am female and I will continue to use female spaces.

You are legally recognised as female, but you are not actually female. If you were, you would need a GRC to lay claim to female.

I think a lot of women had little issue with TW who went through two years transitioning, plus psych evaluation etc, using female toilets. However, I wouldn't know now if you were one of those, or one of the rapist types that conveniently became a woman last week.

I'm afraid to say, that the way the trans debate has unfolded has left me feeling suspicious and unsafe around trans women. I wasn't before. But the climate has changed, and there's a new variety around and I don't trust it feel safe around them.

I do recognise that this is a problem for you too. Which is why you need to consider rejecting TRAs advocating for you.

The Equality Act has exemptions where they can remove trans women from female-only spaces I don't see why we have a blanket ban,

Anyone who dares to use the law and apply exemptions risks losing funding for their organisation and protests against trans hate etc etc. The EA doesn't protect women anymore.

There could be a legal amendment tomorrow that apples are actually now under the citrus fruit heading, that supermarkets have to put them beside the oranges, that they are literally oranges, they have changed colour and everything.

They will still be apples and everyone (even the apples) know that they are not actually oranges.
Making a law that says they are, is a fiction.
Making a law that says everyone has to agree to it, is a fiction.

Just because something is written into law doesn't make it not a complete fabrication that is easily disprovable by science, fact, logic, biology, evolution and reality.

A piece of paper does not change factual reality.

Sorry.
Call yourself whatever you want, the reality will still be the same.

Transphobic ? but there we are.

Quite. This image particularly hardened my own attitude.

Stuff like this is what makes me hate trans activists of today

@scratchedbymycat
What's in it for us? TW phoning radio phone ins and telling millions of listeners that TRAs are barking mad and don't speak for them. I think that's powerful. They're unlikely too if they don't understand our position properly though.
Sturgeon could have done with listening to a few of these voices. But I don't think those voices will speak up if ... as I said all above. I'm going to stop now though.

That helps the public image of men claiming to be women. If they are genuinely understanding of the issues, which some are, and therefore don't use women's spaces, that's great.
But what I asked was why would we have a nice chat about making concessions -and you've said that you don't want us to make concessions. So what are we talking about? This isn't intransigence, it's logic. It's ether single sex or it isn't. Pick one. There is no intermediate position.
The males in question already know what our objections are to males in female single sex spaces - if they didn't, they wouldn't be on here and on other forums explaining why they are going to carry on using women's toilets anyway. They know what our issues are. They. Don't. Care.
As far as the general public goes, mixed sex toilets and changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, etc are already unpopular. They don't need persuading to our point of view.

And when it was explained to them, they doubled down.

Right at this time, I have seen this repeated for years on this board. Maybe you have not seen it before. But believe it or not, there actually ARE transitioned males who once they realised they caused women distress, they did not go back into female single sex spaces again.

So, yes. Male toilets make these male people feel 'unsafe'. The solution was NEVER, NEVER to enter female spaces. And while you personally want to be kind, you admit you don't have a solution.

Women should not be shamed for speaking bluntly about their needs.

Women should not now be emotionally manipulated to respect a male who so blatantly still ignores women's needs..

And the solution, SHOULD have been campaigned for decades ago. If this OP thought about anyone but themselves, they would have realised that they were using women's socialisation to their advantage.

No. Fuck that! If male people and their lobby groups did not ever think to find a solution, IT IS NOT ON WOMEN TO ACCOMMODATE THOSE MALE'S NEEDS WHILE A SOLUTION IS FOUND!

I am typing this in capitals because the message needs to get through to those reading along. Posters can attempt to shame others all they want, they can emotionally manipulate others all they want, however, those who are doing it need to own it.

They are telling women to accept males into female single sex spaces, no matter how much they try to avoid saying they support it. Those doing it need to own it.

Stuff like this is what makes me hate trans activists of today
Go on their forums and tell them that then instead of coming here telling us what to do.

Thanks for the correction. My post has been deleted anyway - apparently "petitions are not allowed on the board" - but I linked to the Mumsnet petitions page!

Anyway - to lurkers - you can search in the search box using keywords "petition GRA" which will bring up the petition about repealing the GRA.

By the way, those males using female toilets and changing rooms. We have it on good authority that there is an app available to trans people to plan their trips so that they don't ever use female single sex spaces.

A trans person has come and told us they do this.

Why are you not using it? And if you don't know about it, go organise something similar, in fact, why haven't you already?

Why? Because you left it to woman to accommodate your needs.

And women have said no. And more and more women are saying no.

Does the person who is male who says they are a woman realise that the moment he steps into a female space it immediately stops being female and becomes mixed sex, meaning that the person who allegedly smashed them in the face for saying 'no' can also use that space?

It sucks that pervert did a bad thing. but I don't see how that then means that we need to remove trans people from bathrooms, The vast majority of which are just trying to live their lives in peace. If this was any other demographic we would not be making this prescription.

Hey poster, try this:

It sucks that pervert did a bad thing. but I don't see how that then means that we need to remove male people from bathrooms, The vast majority of which are just trying to live their lives in peace.

You see..... another demographic has been 'prescribed' this treatment.

How bizarre that you seem to have missed that?

Oh, shall I list all the other things that male people have been excluded from or why any adult needs a DBS check to even enter a school unaccompanied??

Do you really not see that 'other demographics' DO get prescribed exclusion? Or are you so convinced for some reason that because some people say they are 'not male' that they should be believed? That some magic happened and they changed their sex?

This is M. Snow of the organisation What The Trans. Snow went to the swimming pool and used the cubicles in a mixed-sex space provided. And then Snow found out the pool had an open plan communal female changing room too. This should be irrelevant to Snow, because Snow could have carried on using the cubicles in the mixed-sex area.

But Snow found it very relevant and immediately formed the ambition to use the OPEN PLAN COMMUNAL women's changing area.