Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

You know what I think is cruel? Defending the right of males to use women's spaces.

Is that what you think I'm doing? Because I'm really not.

Have you listened to the Heterodorx podcast? Because that's where I'm coming from - the two people in that podcast. I've learned so much. If we could reach that space with TW and women, I think it would change things.

Yep. I'd like the women on this thread to have a bit of compassion extended to them, in fact.

Thank you, patient, polite, brave and forthright women of MN. Thanks for standing firm, explaining a thousand million times that a woman has the same value as a man. Thanks for your wit and insight and your resilience, you inspire me immeasurably by your example.

Here's some flowers, too, because I damn well know that these conversations can be upsetting for women, too. Why the FUCK does anyone think women object to men in women's spaces?

I don't think TW should be expected to use mens toilets, but nor can they use female loos. It is a real problem.

The men's toilets are exactly the toilets they should use. Something like 95% of TW retain their penis and testicles (fully functioning) the men's toilets are perfectly set up for their use as they have urinals. The 5% who have not retained their penis and testicles can use the cubicles within the men's.

To save people watching the entire thing, could you describe the solution?

I genuinely cant see one that doesn't involve segregation based on sex, with third spaces that are mixed.

If the OP has been using women's toilets without being aware of it being an issue then they're not going to understand something based on a succession of posts when what we're saying does not chime with their lived reality of many years.

I don’t think OP said they didn’t realise that women were unhappy they, a male, were using toilets.

If I remember correctly, the OP already knew and hence had been trying to use disabled toilets instead.

Could you please find the post of OPs where they said they had no idea that women were not fully supportive of their using female toilets? Because I seem to be confused, I might have missed it.

I believe they knew and felt they should have the protection of women anyway.

I also think this idea that TW fear of men in males toilets is irrational needs checking.

and having checked it we should then invite those self same frightening men into the women's toilets?

Really?

Women are being irrational for refusing to do that?

Have you listened to the Heterodorx podcast?
Done by the founder of the "TERF tranny alliance" (their terminology not mine MNHQ) who purports to be yet another "reasonable transexual ally" whilst being exactly like trans widow's exes? No thank you.

I don't think TW should be expected to use mens toilets, but nor can they use female loos. It is a real problem.

And your solution/compromise to this is?

And what do you have to say about this from ArabellaScott @scratchedbymycat and @Bathhy just going to hand wave it away?:

Age seventeen I was confused, uneasy and a bit anxious encountering a middle aged male in a wig, frock and lipstick, rubbing himself on the sink units in a female toilet.

My compassion, now, is for my own seventeen year old self, who should not have been used as a prop in that man's fantasy, and for any other women affected by the behaviour of males who just can't afford women and girls respect and compassion, despite asking for it and expecting it themselves.

It's a podcast: two individuals, one TW and one GC, talking. I like how they talk, I like what they say, I find them interesting and thought provoking. I appreciate these MN threads a lot, but it's a bit of an echo chamber. I wish it wasn't. But fuck me, I'm not sure I'd come here if I was a TW who wanted to learn or discuss. I'm actually feeling a bit stressed myself now and think I might step back and do some knitting for a bit!

I'm not suggesting a solution to toilets ... I don't have one.

Everyone keeps saying this is an "echo chamber".

It's really not.

Has it ever occurred to you that it's actually how most women really feel?

If the majority of women feel a certain way, of course it's going to feel like we are all saying the same thing. Everyone I know in real life thinks this is a pile of bollocks.

But however nicely and kindly two groups with opposing needs talk and understand each other, the bottom line is that there cannot be a solution in which some men get to use women's spaces.

Compromise here is no longer possible. It was : it was the GRA. It has been destruction tested.

So you could have a group of TW who listen and understand and finally agree that the solution is third spaces and permitting the undisturbed existence of female only spaces which are not for them. That's what women on FWR want and need for equality of access.

But I suspect what you envisage, and certainly what the OP is very understandably envisaging, is a solution where women agree to be kind and protective towards some vulnerable male people and accept them in female only spaces. And we'll all try not to look at the females who are excluded from any services, whose voices are far less heard or powerful, who don't have very well funded charities and lobbies forcing their needs on to the statute books. This solution just accepts that women lose equality of access and some women will be excluded from public spaces, health care, refuges, but this is ok because we were all compassionate and didn't say no to distressed male people.

If I wanted women's rights mansplaining to me, I'd still be married.

I believe they knew and felt they should have the protection of women anyway.

I think they knew, but I think they thought when all else failed they didn't have a choice. To them, male toilets made them feel unsafe. That's what I took from it. I can't tell someone that 'feeling unsafe' is a nonsense response.

I don't think you can infer that they believed they should have the protection of women. Doubt they even thought about it that deeply.

a PP said
We're never going to make progress without accepting the olive branches that well-intentioned moderates in the trans community offer.

We tried that it got us nowhere, especially when those moderates are only moderates if we acquiesce to their demands. What has worked is crowd funding legal cases and having places both online like here and in real life where women can get together and discuss the issues.

Stella O’Malleys documentary was also useful to open peoples eyes. Anyone thinking we’re mean to DH definitely needs to watch it and in particular watch and listen to DH’s wife. Then remind themselves that DH was really chuffed with it and was promoting it..

and having checked it we should then invite those self same frightening men into the women's toilets?

No. I didn't say that at all. Nor do I believe that.

I appreciate these MN threads a lot, but it's a bit of an echo chamber.

Heaven forfend that a lot of women share the same view, have the same opinion, have the same experiences, whatever next?

It sucks that pervert did a bad thing. but I don't see how that then means that we need to remove trans people from bathrooms, The vast majority of which are just trying to live their lives in peace. If this was any other demographic we would not be making this prescription.

I don't believe meals should be in female toilets. End of.

The TQ+ political lobby constantly tell women that feeling unsafe is a nonsense response. 'Reframe your trauma' is one order given.

When the OP feels they have no choice but to walk into the women's toilets because they feel unsafe, some women have to walk out because they feel unsafe, because their faith or culture does not allow for this, because their disability prevents them, because their trauma prevents them. They don't have another space they could fall back on. They are women, now excluded from the women's space, because a male person feels their feelings are more important than those women's.

I don't believe meals should be in female toilets. End of.

My inner hygienist screamed a bit at that.

don't see how that then means that we need to remove trans people from bathrooms,
Not "trans people", males. And not "remove from bathrooms", remove from female bathrooms (I presume you actually mean toilets)

No, I also absolutely agree, no meals should ever be in women's toilets. 😂 Brilliant autocorrect there.

Trans people are welcome in the bathrooms appropriate to their sex.

I'm guessing American toilets are so huge you could actually bathe in them.

Nobody is removing trans people from bathrooms. They are free to use the bathroom of their biological sex, as is everyone else.

This is the same "why are you trying to ban TW from sports?" line. Nobody is banning anyone from anything.
And to your other point, opening the door to ONE man in a female space opens that same door to ALL men.
And some men are not good people.
It doesn't matter about the "vast majority".
ONE incident is one too many. Making it EASIER for men to access women and girls is not the solution surely?

Spaces are segregated by SEX for a reason.