Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Yes, corrected. It's fair enough to point out where the OP's own behaviour, based on an assumption of a right or need , is contributing to the problem, without ripping into them. And no, I'm not 'being kind'. I live with men, have a son, a father, uncles etc, and I can't flame them every time they don't get it or we'll just stop talking about it. Like Brexit. We also need predominantly male politicians to get it.

I can't flame them every time they don't get it or we'll just stop talking about it. Like Brexit. We also need predominantly male politicians to get it.

This is DARVO. It's not women who have been saying "no debate".

Well, that's where we differ. I don't think that the OP was being disingenuous.

It is not DARVO.

Actually, I see it the other way around. Transpeople (white people) like the OP feeling like they want to support and understand women (black people), and women telling them to shut up and fuck off because .

As I said earlier we had the oh yes I support you and hear what you are saying about men in women's spaces followed by the big BUT I'm going to keep using them because my desires, my feelings are more important than yours from the OP which proves, yet again, that they haven't heard, listened, understood or taken on board anything that has been said.

Nobody told the OP to shut up and fuck off, they said they didn't want the OP in female spaces and services at any time for any reason and explained, exhaustively, why and, as is always the way, it didn't even make a dent in the OP's determination to do what they want.

feeling like they want to support and understand women - like hell they do.

Well, that's where we differ. I don't think that the OP was being disingenuous.
Maybe you've not been around on FWR for as long as some of us who have seen this umpteen times before. I think most of us think it's genuine the first couple of times.

I mean even I didn't see through Hayton properly until the Stella O Malley documentary.

What needs to be 'corrected' about a woman saying women want and need women-only spaces?

And I agree with TinselAngel about DARVO.

It's not women who have been saying "no debate"

Isnt this 'whatabboutery'? And Stonewall and TRAs do not speak for everyone, which is precisely the point.

Dr Hayton has spent a long time purporting to be the reasonable transexual while actually being a (self confessed) autogynephile. Dr Hayton is merely the most successful, not the only, proponent of this way of entering the debate.

Anyway, I really came back to say I think I may be getting deleted or perhaps even banned for using the word that's like DIM. Apparently I'm deliberately, in light of a previous conversation with MNHQ, using a term that I know goes against guidelines.
In this last conversation, I was told it goes against guidelines if used 'in a deliberately inflammatory way'. I was and still am trying to get to how precisely I am using it in such a way.

All of which is to say, if I just disappear, it was nice knowing y'all.

It's fair enough to point out where the OP's own behaviour, based on an assumption of a right or need , is contributing to the problem, without ripping into them.

Is there an assumption that the OP was not fully aware that even their occasional access to female only spaces were not acceptable to many women?

Because I believe that they knew this and understood it. How could they not?

And ‘ripping into them’? As I read the thread the posts that became blunter happened after the OP simply ignored all women’s voices and doubled down that they would continue to use these toilets.

After many other patient posts.

If you, personally, want to accept solutions that exclude women and prioritise males, that is your choice. However, what is that solution? What magic symbol can women trust to allow males like OP who you seem to support accessing toilets (is my assumption wrong ? Is so I apologise) to sort them from others?

No it isn't whataboutery. Women tried reasonable debate with no success, so now we're trying saying "no."

"If only everybody could discuss this reasonably" is a phase most people go through when fairly new to this (as if they're the only people to have thought of it!) once you've had your first few death threats you realise you get the same result with a plain "no", so you might as well just cut out the middle person.

Hayton is a MNetter, look up the threads and read them: you will see the same thing. A polite, pleasant male person who listens patiently to women explaining their side of the issue of needing female only spaces,

and at the end of the thread, kindly tells them that having listened to their concerns, their decision is that they will go on using female spaces and excluding females and for the females this excludes....? Oh well. How sad. Never mind.

There is no discussion to be had here. I'm afraid there really isn't. Discussion and compromise suggests that some men can use women's spaces and it's just working out which ones.

Please go and do the research on this, look into why women are saying this is a pointless exercise. There is no practical way to let some males into women's spaces and not others: if there is access for one it in reality means access for all. And every time a male enters a female only space, some females have to leave it. It's lovely if this does not affect you and your life has not yet been impacted, but this is a women's rights forum where the needs of all women are valued. Women are excluded from women's spaces to be kind to men. This is just plain not ok.

Which means, as women here are repeatedly saying, there will need to be mixed sex third spaces for men who need alternatives to sex based spaces and female only spaces which all male people are going to have to accept are closed to them. This is going to be sad and upsetting for male people and I understand this, I am not without compassion. But it's been more than a bit upsetting for female people while we worked through this awful experiment, and men are not more deserving of compassion than women are.

Yes, corrected. It's fair enough to point out where the OP's own behaviour, based on an assumption of a right or need , is contributing to the problem, without ripping into them.

They weren't ripped into, they were told firmly and clearly that their presence was not welcome in female spaces and services and why. Are women not allowed to be clear and firm when asserting their boundaries? Should we couch it in fluffy language and offer bunches of flowers so as to minimise the prospect of hurting feelings? Really?

If the OP, and others like the OP, can't handle clear, distinct language and the implementation of firm boundaries that is their problem to deal with and not something I am going to apologise for.

If I remember correctly, Hayton was involved in writing guidelines about school toilet use that is still used today where males can use female single sex spaces in schools. And has not worked to change that back.

I also believe they still use female sex pronouns.

This is off the top of my head here.

If you watch Stella O’Malley’s documentary as Tinsel pointed out, you might see what many of us see.

It is both interesting and sad to note, how always women are expected to find the energy to give to men to help them through their feelings about the limits of other people's equality and boundaries.

Where is the reciprocal energy given to help women with the exclusion, harm, endless battles such as women raped in prisons, unable to access refuges? Where has the demand been for compassion, kindness, listening, understanding?

“ripped into” is emotionally manipulative by the way. And emotional manipulation is certainly frequently used on this board to silence women who some people consider too hardline .

OP - we can agree that no-one should be attacked for the way they appear or the way they dress. Standing with you on that is not a problem.

Being realistic about gender (GC) does not automatically connect with wanting to attack or hate anyone. It never has.

The part that is a problem is that like the men you complain about, you are male and feel that you can put your needs above those of women ('female') wherever there is conflict:

'I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option '

Your option in this case is to 'feel unsafe' or to make someone else actually unsafe by opening up women's safe spaces to all men with their own 'reasons' to inhabit them.

I still remember the sick feeling that I had watching the SOM documentary and realising that Hayton was married to a woman and was actually exactly like my ex, whilst purporting to be on the side of women.

Then I realised Hayton was actually much, much worse than my ex, because at least my ex has the honestly to be a raging TRA. Imagine if he was a stunning and brave transexual ally and had got to Mumsnet before me, to much acclaim. It doesn't bear thinking about.

There was a lot of unnecessary vitriol that detracted from a shared desire to protect women's spaces.

Ffs. To those who say things like this ^ and other equally contradictory statements - do you understand the cognitive dissonance involved? You cant believe that a biological male who wants to make women's spaces mixed sex, is simultaneously protecting them.

Those two viewpoints are the opposite of each other.

The op is fully aware of this. As are the, frankly numerous, transwomen saying the same thing. Debbie Hayton understands where women are coming from? Whilst simultaneously admitting they are aroused by being called one and writing guidelines to make sure they are??? Ffs.

My head would explode with the manipulation involved in leveraging female socialisation to get women to accept two contradictory statements simultaneously - in order violate their boundaries.

No thanks!!

they said they didn't want the OP in female spaces and services at any time for any reason and explained, exhaustively, why and, as is always the way, it didn't even make a dent in the OP's determination to do what they want.

And

As I read the thread the posts that became blunter happened after the OP simply ignored the women's voices and doubled down that they would continue to use these toilets.

If the OP has been using women's toilets without being aware of it being an issue then they're not going to understand something based on a succession of posts when what we're saying does not chime with their lived reality of many years.

And frankly, I wouldn't have batted an eye at a TW in a loo ten years ago. In fact, I even used to be horrified at the American right-wing christian responses to TW in women's toilets. It seemed cruel. So I can see how there's a road to travel to get there.

OP wasn't getting it initially, but final post said "So to those of you who say I should be campaigning for a situation where I didn't have to pick either, I agree with you, and it's given me a lot of food for thought."

I also think this idea that TW fear of men in males toilets is irrational needs checking. My own DH would not change our babies nappies in a mens toilet if it was near urinals. He just didn't like the idea of potential paedophiles watching our children's nude bits while they held their dicks and peed. It's not only about safety. It's about a host of things, including dignity.

I don't think TW should be expected to use mens toilets, but nor can they use female loos. It is a real problem.

You know what I think is cruel? Defending the right of males to use women's spaces.

Age seventeen I was confused, uneasy and a bit anxious encountering a middle aged male in a wig, frock and lipstick, rubbing himself on the sink units in a female toilet.

My compassion, now, is for my own seventeen year old self, who should not have been used as a prop in that man's fantasy, and for any other women affected by the behaviour of males who just can't afford women and girls respect and compassion, despite asking for it and expecting it themselves.

Call it selfish if you must.

I've actually watched Adult Human Female and I've been wanting to watch Affirmation Generation so thanks a lot for sending me the link, I really do find it interesting to read/watch gender-critical material even though I disagree with a lot of the prescriptions gender-critical people have.

It sounds like the OP may be in that category, similar to the two people on the video clip that I posted (who also say it's a mental illness).

I don't buy it.

As I say I know others in similar set up to the OP. There's more to it as I know the back history of two of them very well.

I think theres another explaination.

I'd also like to ask, in what way are people like the OP not also displaying power over women and not being misygoynistic with it?

THAT is problematic.

Therapy and transition STILL doesn't make them women. It STILL doesn't make women responsible and need to give up their dignity / privacy to accomodate other male's mental health conditions (as women may have their OWN mental health issues which are also valid).