Trans and losing my mind...

[bluepetergeneration]

Posting here in good faith. And I'll leave that at that.

I'm a TS. I was born male. I don't normally post on mumsnet but I started using it as I have a 1 year old DD. I won't tell my whole life story, that would be self indulgent, so I'll just say what I came here to say.

I'm sick to death of my community. I'm sick of the misogyny. I'm under no illusion that I'm a woman or ever will be. I transitioned when I was very young so I pass, but I still now only use female bathrooms when there's no other option (such as a disabled bathroom- I would feel unsafe in the mens). What I have is a disorder- it was crippling- and now I live my life so that I can actually enjoy it and not feel 'wrong'.

The idea of self-ID sickens me, and I'm tired of having to have the same conversations over and over again with other trans people who accuse me of being some kind of self hating transsexual just because I care about the safety of women. I also care about the safety of my kid. Partly because I'm worried she'll be in danger because I'm trans, and also because I don't want her to get caught up in all these weird messages that being trans isn't a disorder around dysphoria (which it is).

I guess I'm posting this to say that in this fight, trans people with genuine dysphoria who aren't delusional will be standing right beside you.

Also a plea to not paint all of us with the same brush. You can fight for the rights of trans people (like me, I should be able to present female and not get attacked, and when I was in my late teens and still looked a bit male I did get attacked) and also be gender critical

Men fear women laughing at them and saying no.

Yeah, we know we've had a lifetime of it.

Interesting to note how TW react just like men when women say 'No' to them accessing female spaces and services isn't it?

And the end of that quote from Margaret Atwood?

”and women fear that men will kill them”

@Grumpybutfunny You may be confident in your own body. However you speak for you at THIS point in time. At some point in the future you may not feel as confident in your own body.

Some people much prefer to change in private cubicles, some are happy in an open communal area, some use the open area and a towel for privacy.

But the bottom line is everyone has their own limit to what they are happy with. Very few women would be completely happy to change in front of random men.

Men fear women laughing at them and saying no.

I'm not laughing at anyone. I am saying 'no'.

Thanks, OP. This kind of compromise is exactly what we need it would be a real pity if the thread had upset you, but I appreciate your effort.

I don't like that this section of MN has become more dogmatic and reactive (though wouldn't want to dismiss the posters who have posted insightful and thoughtful replies, like NotHavingIt, to pick a random example - a reminder of what FWR used to be like, IMO). We're never going to make progress without accepting the olive branches that well-intentioned moderates in the trans community offer.

I don't want any olive branches. I want women's spaces for women, thank you. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see women are in trouble and we have posters who are appearing to tell women sorrowfully that at one point they thought protecting female only equality of access and inclusion was a good thing but now seeing how howwid women are being to poor male people they are abandoning inclusion for women. Gosh.

Frankly if your ability to cope with equality for women is reliant on said women being naice enough to men, then your belief in equality and inclusion as principles and your capacity to see females as equally human to males was never really there to begin with, was it?

We've been nice. We've listened. Endlessly. We've handled years of being told we need to understand better what's going on in the heads of male people and exactly how being trans affects them (as if that means women will then agree to hand over their equality and handle the rapes and exclusions). You might have noticed in resources for women by women you will often see the reminder that patriarchy and misogyny often means that women are endlessly expected to invest in what's going on inside a man and understand him better, and moderate her behaviour to facilitate him more, instead of - well.

You know.

Have equal expectations that he's as grown up as you are, and that you're not his mum or therapist. And that expecting him not to hit you, or exclude you, is a reasonable expectation. And that women do not revolve around or judge reality based on the very special and important inner life of a man. They matter too, and their own lives and inner selves matter, and co dependency isn't a healthy thing.

Particularly since those men are almost never remotely sparing a moment of time or effort to reciprocate this.

As an article I read this morning commented: Our innocence and good will were exploited and used against us.

Innocence: yup, gone. Totally. Went somewhere in the tampons up the bum/ sword waving bit of experience. Good will? Yes, that's gone too at this point. It is not women that destroyed this relationship and it won't be them who repairs it, because we're not bloody idiots put on this planet to Mummy anyone who screams 'pick me up'.

Thanks, OP. This kind of compromise is exactly what we need Flowers it would be a real pity if the thread had upset you, but I appreciate your effort.

I must have missed the kind of comprise the OP suggested, care to elaborate?

We're never going to make progress without accepting the olive branches that well-intentioned moderates in the trans community offer.

Women you can't do anything without including men. Thanks, but no thanks, I think far more highly of what women can achieve than you obviously do. As for accepting olive branches from people who have trashed women's boundaries and want to continue to do so - words fail me.

No. There was no desire from the OP to protect women's spaces. OP is a man, who admits to entering such spaces. How can you square that with any protection for women?

What nuances, FFS? OP is male; where's the nuance? It is artificially creating these non-existent 'nuances' that will obliterate women's rights and take society back to the fucking dark ages.

Why, in the name of all that's holy, are you defending these men?

We've handled years of being told we need to understand better what's going on in the heads of male people and exactly how being trans affects them (as if that means women will then agree to hand over their equality and handle the rapes and exclusions). You might have noticed in resources for women by women you will often see the reminder that patriarchy and misogyny often means that women are endlessly expected to invest in what's going on inside a man and understand him better, and moderate her behaviour to facilitate him more, instead of - well.

Yes @nilsmousehammer - women as service humans, support humans, be nice to the poor men, it's all so hard for them. Incredible that some women are coming onto a feminist forum buying into this, putting the men and their wants and feelings above women and showing their craven adherence to patriarchy and their internalised misogyny by scolding other women for not doing so.

Thanks, OP. This kind of compromise is exactly what we need

Who is "we" in this scenario? Presumably not women.

Again forced teaming.

"accepting an olive branch" is just "be kind" dressed up with lipstick on.

If "accepting an olive branch" means letting men into women's spaces, then the answer is NO.

LOTS of solutions have been suggested over the last few years. Third spaces being one of them. These suggestions have been thrown back in the faces of women, because the ONLY right answer is NO DEBATE, accept unquestioningly, be kind, reframe your trauma, stop weaponizing your biology/periods, blah blah blah.
Any olive branches WE have proffered are snapped and chucked back at us.
Why the hell should women then, backed into a corner with nowhere to go, accept the olive branch that essentially forces them to acquiesce to a harmful and dangerous ideology which LITERALLY erases their language, lived experiences and safety?

The answer is NO.
There is no situation where a man invading a women's space is OK.
One is too many.

I'm still waiting to hear what this magic compromise suggested by the OP was that is the answer to everything.

Agree about the 'we' - who is this mythical 'we'?

If, by any chance, @bluepetergeneration and @Bathhy are still lurking... please go watch Affirmation Generation (player.vimeo.com/video/800032857), and Adult Human Female (https//adult human female.info). The first is especially critical to watch as parents.

WRT 'appeasing men', Abigail Shriver comments in that film (affirmation generation) that it's the silent voices in the centre that need to start speaking up because the voices at the margins are drowning out any chance of meaningful discussion.

Let me put it like this .... As a white person, I would talk very very nervously to a black person about race. I might even use the words 'good faith' when I started talking with a genuine desire to know how to do better. If the black person instantly pounced on my badly expressed thoughts with contempt and anger I might just shut up and even feel hurt (I know, tiny violin) But I can't express what I don't know and haven't lived. If I am genuine about trying to change, I need to be heard and corrected with patience. Me shutting up is no good because it's white people that need to change to fix that issue. You end up with the racists still being racists, and the good people doing nothing.

As for Debbie Hayton ... I really don't understand the visceral reaction to her contributions. Hayton exposes autogynephilia as a thing, for example in almost every interview. And she's trans and recognising issues from the ideology. It's more compelling coming from someone who lives it.

I am so grateful for the trans individuals who expose that TRAs do not speak for all of them. I wish with all my heart more would come forward. It would go a long way to making politicians reflect more critically. But they won't if we read their posts for evidence of wrong doing and focus first on that rather than the fact they step forward in good faith and want to try.

And as repeatedly explained in this thread, there cannot be the solution that many who prefer the term transsexuals would like, (understandably), which is in essence 'I will support you in the battle of not those men in your spaces, but the price of my support is that you agree I'm nice so I can come in'.

There is no practical way possible to say yes to some men and no to others. If it's one, it's all. The GRA tried to do this and it's been exploited because it can be. It always will be.

Yes, it does not feel kind and nice to say no to men who are distressed and would love you to be 'kind' and do what they would like. But if you're worried about this then you really need to question as to why you find it so much easier to say no to women than you do to men. Because to be kind to those men you have to abandon your own sex.

Let me put it like this .... As a white person, I would talk very very nervously to a black person about race. I might even use the words 'good faith' when I started talking with a genuine desire to know how to do better. If the black person instantly pounced on my badly expressed thoughts with contempt and anger I might just shut up and even feel hurt (I know, tiny violin) But I can't express what I don't know and haven't lived. If I am genuine about trying to change, I need to be heard and corrected with patience. Me shutting up is no good because it's white people that need to change to fix that issue. You end up with the racists still being racists, and the good people doing nothing.

Are women the white people who needs to shut up and listen in this analogy, and trans people the black people?

Yes, it does not feel kind and nice to say no to men who are distressed and would love you to be 'kind' and do what they would like. But if you're worried about this then you really need to question as to why you find it so much easier to say no to women than you do to men. Because to be kind to those men you have to abandon your own sex.

I think it would be a useful exercise for women to try out saying 'no' more often.

Try it! People will think & possibly say you're a cow/rude/awful/shocking/mean/unfair.

So what?

All you're doing is saying 'no'.

You're not being rude, you're just asserting your boundaries, simply and plainly, without apology.

Why would we need to appease people in order to ask for permission to have boundaries?

I hear you.

And then I think that so far, that listening to a moderate trans voice approach still excludes women who no one seems to prioritise.

Because people still listen to the male voices above the female voices and those people then attempt to shame those who do prioritise the female voices.

And as repeatedly explained in this thread, there cannot be the solution that many who prefer the term transsexuals would like, (understandably), which is in essence 'I will support you in the battle of not those men in your spaces, but the price of my support is that you agree I'm nice so I can come in'.

Why does talking to someone necessarily equate to 'I accept the price of your support'? Why is a discussion automatically capitulation or appeasement? I find that quite silencing as well. I voice a need for discussion and suddenly I'm a 'handmaiden'?

I genuinely doubt the OP even appreciated their behaviour was arrogant, and most probably because they comply fully with the 2004 version of a transgender woman, not the TRA version. I personally was never troubled by the 2004 GRA. Things have changed, and the OP is negatively affected too.

But I can't express what I don't know and haven't lived. If I am genuine about trying to change, I need to be heard and corrected with patience.
'corrected'?

And where in this scenario are the men, who want to use women's spaces, who 'don't know and haven't lived' anything to do with being a woman trying to deal with a mooncup/not wanting people who aren't female to see her unclothed body because of past abuse/assault or her cultural or religious beliefs?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have become more 'dogmatic and reactive' because of the repeated demonstrations of what anything else achieves. Some men are very slow learners wrt women having a right to control access to their spaces and their bodies and their words and their lives.

Euphemism and the language of compromise does not work. Plain speaking is essential.

Are women the white people who needs to shut up and listen in this analogy, and trans people the black people?

Actually, I see it the other way around. Transpeople (white people) like the OP feeling like they want to support and understand women (black people), and women telling them to shut up and fuck off because ...

I use race as an analogy because it's something I've personally lived as a white person trying to understand my own role in racism. I personally haven't ever had the same intense reaction from black people though, that the OP got here.

“This kind of compromise”

I am reminded of the James Thurber story where the wolves blamed the rabbits for causing problems for the wolves, who, of course, were just trying to live their best lives. The wolves called the rabbits all sorts of unpleasant names , blamed them for causing hurt and distress to the wolves , and tried to encourage others to see the rabbits in the same way. In the end of course the wolves , in Thurber's words, “civilised” the rabbits, because that has always been the way wolves sort stuff out.

(because of course the best compromises always end up with someone’s compromise being a better fit than the other person’s compromise. )

Transpeople (white people) like the OP feeling like they want to support and understand women (black people), and women telling them to shut up and fuck off because ...

I can finish that sentence for you- because they don't really want to help and support women, they want to maintain their own special privileges in women's spaces

If a white person went to a black person with a similarly disingenuous request, I hope they would also be told to fuck off.

Yes. Also, I'm fucking tired.

I have no energy left for platitudes and soothing words.

Sex is immutable. Women need our stuff.

That's it. That's all I have energy for.