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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

One third of pupils kept home on "rainbow day" at Canadian school

280 replies

Rainbowshit · 17/02/2023 13:14

Yikes.

I guess there's more disquiet about this stuff in Canada than is reported.

lfpress.com/news/local-news/rainbow-day-why-did-one-third-of-kids-at-one-london-school-stay-home

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 17/02/2023 23:08

Helleofabore · 17/02/2023 21:55

What are the variables on the axis for this continuum?

Which females are more female than others?

Who decides this? Is there an arbitration board? Where is this published?

Or is it as Claire Ainsworth tweeted, sex is binary and there are many variations of bodies within those two categories of bodies.

Thank you Helleofabore - I can't really improve on your answer!

Helleofabore · 17/02/2023 23:10

Yes wait, brain scans are interesting. But they are not conclusive at all.

Remember, if they were, they would be used as a test.

They are not. Because we know from the London cabbies that groups of people doing similar activities will have similar brain patterns.

hangonsnoopy · 17/02/2023 23:22

Sex is defined by large or small gamete production.

Brains have nothing to do with defining what sex is because many species are plants and don't have a brain.

One of the things that annoys me about the 'sex is not a binary' argument is that it relies on telling people they are not clever or educated enough to understand the science.

Which is actually what people have always said to women.

The science is straightforward, and sex is a binary.

Sex is a binary in all multicellular sexually reproducing species. Sex is binary in plants with both male and female systems. There is no third sex system.

It wouldn't matter if every single human had an intersex condition. We would still reproduce as male or female, just as all intersex mammals and birds do.

Helleofabore · 17/02/2023 23:26

By the way, did I see in at least one of those brain studies that the males who were socially transitioned still did not have ‘female’ profile brains… it was noted they had brains that were not as similar to other males as they were to each other. Still not ‘female’ profile brains

Kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it? I will pull out the line in the study tomorrow. It is too late tonight.

Findwen · 17/02/2023 23:27

mach2 · 17/02/2023 22:08

i Do you also feel that we should cancel Black history month?

No day or month has to be cancelled - except Shove Queer Theory On Kids Day.

To get back to this part - honestly I do. At the very least it needs major reform based on my local schools. They exclusively focus on very modern history and much of it about US history. Black history (from my local schools point of view) starts with the transatlantic slave trade - nothing before that. Try and find something about say the Abbasid Caliphate, the Umayyad empire or the Mali empire and you will be sorely disappointed. Black history month is reduced to history about the white man interacting with the black man in very modern times.

Why I really dislike it is that the school is mostly white, a tiny bit black with a much larger and growing number of brown people. The brown people are almost never considered at all.

Waitwhat23 · 17/02/2023 23:27

Helleofabore · 17/02/2023 23:10

Yes wait, brain scans are interesting. But they are not conclusive at all.

Remember, if they were, they would be used as a test.

They are not. Because we know from the London cabbies that groups of people doing similar activities will have similar brain patterns.

Oh agreed, definitely not conclusive - the amount of conjecture and qualifying statements in the last linked research in particular is actually quite amusing.

landOFconfusion · 17/02/2023 23:50

Helleofabore · 17/02/2023 21:55

What are the variables on the axis for this continuum?

Which females are more female than others?

Who decides this? Is there an arbitration board? Where is this published?

Or is it as Claire Ainsworth tweeted, sex is binary and there are many variations of bodies within those two categories of bodies.

The definitions for words like binary and continuum are established via the concept of cardinality.

A continuum can never be binary because they aren’t equinumerous.

Rainbowshit · 17/02/2023 23:52

Well we're certainly racking up points on the TRA bingo card.

twitter.com/oslermarc/status/1626685038057193473?s=46&t=Xz-eXGsWsSa34O0AbQ7r4g

Shame someone had to spoil it as I'm fairly certain we would have got the SciAm claire ainsworth article if it hadn't been taken down in advance.

OP posts:
Rainbowshit · 17/02/2023 23:58

@landOFconfusion if this was an exam you'd have failed. You need to answer the question asked, not what you'd like it to be.

OP posts:
DemiColon · 18/02/2023 00:08

Josette77 · 17/02/2023 17:39

I live in Canada.
We have blue shirt day for autism awareness.
Orange shirt day for First Nations.
Pink shirt day for anti-bulling.
Red shirt day for Terry Fox Day.
Black History month.

The point is there are lots of different days celebrated here.

And for the most part these aren't improving kid's lives or their self-understanding. It's largely performative bs. With often poorly taught history thrown in.

Terry Fox Day, historically, was actually a fundraiser for cancer research.

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 18/02/2023 00:18

IWineAndDontDine · 17/02/2023 14:22

Can you actually not understand why these things are needed or are you arguing for the sake of it?

No, in 2023 these days are not needed anymore. In the 80s, yes, not now.

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 18/02/2023 00:23

IWineAndDontDine · 17/02/2023 14:44

Ah so disabled people don't have a day so LGBTQ+ can't either?

You either have a day for all or none at all. It's the only fair way.

DemiColon · 18/02/2023 00:33

mach2 · 17/02/2023 22:08

i Do you also feel that we should cancel Black history month?

No day or month has to be cancelled - except Shove Queer Theory On Kids Day.

There are plenty of black people who don't love the concept of black history month, and would rather see the history of black people in Canada integrated with the rest of the history teaching curricula.

That's not actually a particularly controversial viewpoint, it makes a lot of sense from the perspective of how to teach history effectively. You don't have separate months for teaching about most other groups, it's mainly done chronologically. Which is how we learned about black immigration into Canada when I was a student.

IAmWomanHearMeRoar1 · 18/02/2023 01:16

suggestionsplease1 · 17/02/2023 20:48

You must be out of touch with contemporary science if you think that the majority of present day academics and researchers consider sex to be binary.

@suggestionsplease1 You are confusing sex with gender. Gender is non-binary but sex is binary and immutable.

pristinesurfacesGBTD · 18/02/2023 02:03

Trivium4all · 17/02/2023 18:56

Couple of things to add, hopefully to help clarify and provide context, as a Canadian who lived not so far away from where that school is:

First, I got the impression from the article that the "Rainbow Day" wasn't about anything specifically to do with sexuality or gender or sex, but about diversity in general: the students were asked to wear shirts in their favourite colours (as a PP pointed out, shirts in various colours are trotted out for all sorts of occasions, so on this occasion, they wanted all the shirts together, I guess). The undertone I read in the article is, "Oh dear, some in the Muslim community appear to have thought that we meant the Pride rainbow. We should have communicated better," alongside considerable discomfort that perhaps this means that not everyone in that community approves of Pride...when surely all nice people everywhere agree about every "progressive" point... (as other PPs have pointed out). (N.B. I really don't like the term "X community", as it assumes a monolith that rarely exists.)

Second, while I take the point that being singled out for a characteristic, even in ostensible celebration, can have the opposite effect to making someone feel included (I speak from personal experience), there is a long tradition of speaking about Canada as a "cultural mosaic" (as opposed to the American "cultural melting pot"), and of holding festivals and celebratory days for just about any heritage or characteristic one could think of. The idea seems to be that by learning about each other's differences, one will learn to be appreciative and not fearful (the problem with this, of course, is that this model doesn't account for what happens when features of two cultures are mutually incompatible). Specifically, London (Canada) is a fairly large city that used to have a multicultural festival involving many of the various cultural heritage centres in the city putting on food, clothing, music, art etc. displays, and everyone travelled around eating each other's food and collecting stamps in a "passport" for the day. Many current teachers, and the parents of many children, will have taken part in this festival. Of course by itself it didn't resolve culture clashes, but it is still fondly remembered. So in this context, wanting to celebrate diversity by naïvely highlighting differences and saying "but that's ok" is at least consistent with specific local practice.

Third, the area within which this school is, is the more socioeconomically deprived region of the city (and is where many of the Syrian refugees have settled), and there was a huge case in the news last year in which a Muslim family was murdered in this city (although in a different area). It was the first mass killing ever in the city, and as I understand it, feelings around Islamophobia are still very raw. The uncomfortable undercurrent of the article will have something to do with that as well, and with the self-image of the generous kind welcoming Canadian not always being reflected in the reality of the situation.

And fourth, about the "New Canadians" thing: basically, if you're not Indigenous, you're a "New Canadian", even if your ancestors came over in the 16th century. So it's not an insult. In fact, the article seemed to be falling over itself wanting to make clear that the Syrian refugees were now considered Canadian, which is why it gets tangled in knots differentiating among really brand-new, formerly-Syrian-refugee-New-Canadians, and also-of-Middle-Eastern-heritage-but-second-or-third-generation-New Canadians. As another PP has said, asking where someone is from is not a loaded question in Canada like it can be here (at least not in an urban context in Ontario), because basically the assumption is that everyone is an immigrant at some point, and talking about when/from whence one's family arrived in Canada is a perfectly normal conversation starter in many situations.

Everybody, read this.

MrsTerryPratchett · 18/02/2023 02:18

suggestionsplease1 · 17/02/2023 21:42

Honest to goodness, we'd be here all night, well...year, going into it and you still wouldn't have any consideration for the points that I would make. So I really don't see the point.

But if you can't acknowledge that the scientific community, in general (not exclusively, I agree, there are a minority still hanging on to a binary interpretation) are engaged in a broader understanding of sex over a reductive binary model then I think you've got your head in the sand and you're deliberately avoiding / refusing to acknowledge the discourse in this area.

I haven't RTFT but this is hipster science.

You wouldn't have heard of it, or understand it, so I wont explain it. You simply aren't cool enough.

Get your sriracha back in your vintage bassoon case with your moustache wax, put your kilt on and and leave the rest of us to populate the world with our sexual reproduction based on two sexes. Just like all mammals.

You're not special.

Lozzybear · 18/02/2023 06:26

@mach2 I agree with @Findwen . In fact, black history month should be renamed US history month as that’s mostly what my DS is taught at his school during black history month. He was only six when it was introduced and was very confused -
he thought that black people had to sit in different sections of the bus in the UK. I had to explain that much of what he learned about happened in the US not the UK.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2023 06:39

landOFconfusion · 17/02/2023 23:50

The definitions for words like binary and continuum are established via the concept of cardinality.

A continuum can never be binary because they aren’t equinumerous.

And still body types form around two types.

There is not a continuum of body types where one body is more female or male than another body.

And I have not seen you produce any other sexes that contribute material to produce a human being.

Just male and just female.

AlisonDonut · 18/02/2023 07:24

Teachers don't really have the time to do enough research and planning to do these 'whatever whatever month/week/day' specials properly. They really don't. They don't have the time to research all the associated history and contextualise it so it ends up being 'look at the gay/black/whatever kids, we must make them feel included'....which does the exact opposite.

If these things are important enough they will learn these things in a calmer less hyped up session as part of their whole education.

It is bobbins and all educational establishments would be better off stopping the pointing at the non straight white kids and look to producing an actual rounded non bullying curriculum that teaches them the basics.

nauticant · 18/02/2023 07:57

If there's a continuum of body types would someone point me to a body type that lies broadly around mid-point? Thanks.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2023 08:12

nauticant · 18/02/2023 07:57

If there's a continuum of body types would someone point me to a body type that lies broadly around mid-point? Thanks.

I do wonder whether those who like to deal with wonderful theoretical bodies ever think…. What body type is the mid point. Where is that mid point and what do we call the body type there? A female-male. A male-female? A mafemale? A femamale? What?

FrancescaContini · 18/02/2023 08:12

@MrsTerryPratchett ”hipster science” 😂

nauticant · 18/02/2023 08:41

I think the answer will be to point at CAIS individuals Helleofabore. Maybe arguing that the femaleness of an individual can be equated to vaginal depth or something.

Grammarnut · 18/02/2023 08:50

IWineAndDontDine · 17/02/2023 14:15

Because, believe it or not, there will be members of the LGBT community at these schools, and we would rather they not feel like they are abnormal

But why a rainbow day? Why does everything have to be celebrated? There is no reason why children at a primary school should know anything about the sexual orientation of their teachers (nor a secondary school, come to think of it - none of the pupils' business) and when do they celebrate straight day? I notice they celebrated Hijab Day for women who wish to wear hijab - not occur to them that many women are forced to wear it, not noticed the protests in Iran?

Helleofabore · 18/02/2023 08:58

Yes nauticant I suspect you are right. And let’s not forget mosaicism.

The reality, of course, is that it doesn’t matter. A human with 6 fingers on one hand doesn’t mean that they are a different type of human. It just means they have a medical condition that meant their body produced an extra finger.

And a person who doesn’t process testosterone but is male, is a male who doesn’t process testosterone but has testes . Ie. Had a body type formed around the production of small gametes.

Once people stop using karotype as the only definition for ‘sex’ and allow for a wide variety of body variations, it becomes simpler.

A little like the expected World Athletics changes to be worded around male hormonal development will immediately make it clear who can and cannot be considered. That will leave the discussion to the much finer details of whether those CAIS athletes have any advantage or not and stop this wasted effort on other males with DSDs being included.