One third of pupils kept home on "rainbow day" at Canadian school

[Rainbowshit]

Yikes.

I guess there's more disquiet about this stuff in Canada than is reported.

lfpress.com/news/local-news/rainbow-day-why-did-one-third-of-kids-at-one-london-school-stay-home

Totally agree with @Grammarnut

Children don’t go to school to find out about what consenting adults get up to in private.

Let children be children.

As for “Hijab day” 😮 totally tone deaf especially given events in Afghanistan and Iran over recent months.

I know exactly what you mean

its like when some posters talk about sex segregated loos like its a new thing

its not, weve had them for many many many years. Its as if they think that we are the ones that want to change the status quo in that respect when its them!

same with sports, having transwomen in sports is a new thing, its not posters on FWR demanding a change

chestertons fence situation right there….

🤣🤣🤣

Love it 😀

I think I liked 'vintage bassoon case' the best 😄

I think @MrsTerryPratchett has won the internet today 😂

I’m picturing sriracha all over the moustache 🤮

So happy not to live in Canada. All the coloured shirts, all the “celebrations”, all the enforced groupthink. Seems very performative. Do the children leave school able to solve problems and engage in critical thinking and healthy debate? Handle conflict?

I have not seen suggestions come back and give any comment to the links they just plopped down. So I will start.

Remember, these are links that are supposed to be evidence that sex has been proven to be not binary. suggestions said back on page 4:

"You must be out of touch with contemporary science if you think that the majority of present day academics and researchers consider sex to be binary."

This is the statement that the following posts are evidence of. I am not going to get into the ridiculousness of the assertion of 'the majority of present day academics and researchers'. Because that over exaggeration, hyperbole, is habitual for this poster. One that declares that 'none of their female friends' have any issue sharing single sex spaces with a male who identifies as a woman (if I have that wrong, or you have walked back that claim suggestions, please let me know)

Firstly is Fausto-Sterling. Who I posted up thread has been discredited for their over inflated % of people with DSDs, (wasn't she the one who declared more people with DSDs than red heads?) either way, she claimed 1.7% when it is more like 0.18%. That is quite a significant difference.

Fausto-Sterling also was upfront that she was tongue in cheek about her 5 or 6 sexes paper.

This link is also to a New York Times opinion piece. If this is what qualifies for evidence about such an important scientific find, one that would be the find of the ages, I should think that Suggestions could find something better than this to qualify as evidence.

joelvelasco.net/teaching/3334/fausto-Why_sex_Is_Not_Binary.pdf

Why Sex Is Not Binary by Anne Fausto-Sterling October 2018

"Today, some governments seem to be following the Roman model, if not killing people who do not fit into one of two sex-labeled bins (sic), then at least trying to deny their existence."

For clarity, I don't recall anyone on this board denying the existence of people with differences of sex development. However, I do recall, and I believe Suggestions has been on those threads too, that people with differences of sex development should not be used to pry open the 'categories' of sex to allow people to use those medical conditions to prop up gender identity theories.

That is what in being done here by Fausto-Sterling.

If suggestions wants to present themselves as progressive, why is suggestions politicising people's medical conditions in this way? Why do they think others should also be willing to do this? I consider this to be the opposite of tolerance.

"In the 1950s the psychologist John Money and his colleagues studied people born with unusual combinations of sex markers (ovaries and a penis, testes and a vagina, two X chromosomes and a scrotum, and more). Thinking about these people, whom today we would call intersex, Dr. Money developed a multilayered model of sexual development."

Anyone else see what is missing here? None of these examples are of someone with ovaries AND testes. This is somewhat a flawed point really isn't.

If a body has been formed around the production of one or the other gamete, then that is and should be the focus. Whether that gamete is a streak gamete or one is perfect working order.

"The adults surrounding the newborn identify sex based on how they perceive genital sex (at birth or from an ultrasound image) and this begins the process of gender socialization."

What has gender socialisation got to do with whether a body is male or female?

Oh ... right... brain sex. We shall look at those studies coming up.

"What matters, then, is not the presence or absence of a particular gene but the balance of power among gene networks acting together or in a particular sequence. This undermines the possibility of using a simple genetic test to
determine “true” sex."

This is theoretical. And it comes after a sentence about sports. True 'sex' can be determined by the presence of ovaries or testes and if they are both missing, then other 'layers' can be considered as well as 'genetic testing'.

I will leave this up to others to decide on whether this meets the criteria of evidence.

Note: Please also look up Money's experiment with two boys and read what you can about it. For some reason people like Money and Foucault seem to be embraced by a movement determined to breakdown social mores - do check out two men deemed to be so important to destabilising language and science for their own purposes.

I hope you immediately reported those young men to the police. If it actually happened that is.. And curious how you knew they were Muslim? I suspect you made the determination based on colour in which case they could have been Atheist, Hindu, Christian or another religious belief.

I also wonder how much exposure you actually have to Muslim communities. I have never ever heard a member of my Muslim family make a homophobic comment. I’ve heard some white British make homophobic jokes.

Your comments suggest you are a racist.

I like the approach of coming to a site with mostly mothers and telling them they don't understand how human reproduction works.

"Beyond the binary: Rethinking sex and the brain"

Daphna Joel, March 2021

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763420306540

Abstract
The paper reviews the relations between sex and brain in light of the binary conceptualization of these relations and the challenges posed to it by the ‘mosaic’ hypothesis. Recent formulations of the binary framework range from arguing that the typical male brain is different from the typical female brain to claiming that brains are typically male or female because brain structure can be used to predict the sex category (female/male) of the brain’s owner. These formulations are challenged by evidence that sex effects on the brain may be opposite under different conditions, that human brains are comprised of mosaics of female-typical and male-typical features, and that sex category explains only a small part of the variability in human brain structure. These findings led to a new, non-binary, framework, according to which mosaic brains reside in a multi-dimensional space that cannot meaningfully be reduced to a male-female continuum or to a binary variable. This framework may also apply to sex-related variables and has implications for research.

Summary
"The sex binary is a powerful framework through which we understand not only the social world but also physiology. However, current data suggest that this framework is not appropriate for understanding sex effects on the brain or even sex itself. Moreover, the dominance of the binary framework interferes with the scientific endeavor to understand sex, the brain, and the relations between them. The challenge for the future is to develop new analytical methods that take human variability on all measures, including sex-related ones, into account"

This is interesting and very good advice in some instances:

"Sex category is not only dull in the information it provides, the current dominance of the binary framework may lead to misdiagnosis when a patient is suffering from a condition or is presenting with symptoms that are associated with the other gender. One example is depression, and especially postpartum depression, which is under-diagnosed in men, even though it is not as rare as commonly believed. For example, a recent study revealed a 10:9 ratio of mothers to fathers suffering from postpartum depression (Cheng et al., 2018). Another example is heart disease, which is considered a men’s disease, even though it is the number one killer of women in the United States"

Brains are interesting. However, I don't recall anyone on this board or seeing many studies linked up that say there is a male brain vs a female brain. There ARE differences physically due to skull shape (typical male vs typical female). There are some differences due to hormones and other processes of the female body. It is highly likely that people doing similar tasks and having similar interests will develop the same areas of the brain regardless of sex. Have I misunderstood what I have read when I have read up on this topic?

However, I do not look at this paper as evidence that sex is not binary.

Why did you include it suggestions? What is it about this paper that you found could be used as evidence that sex is not binary? This is about brains. It is not about the bodies reproductive abilities. Which is all that the sex binary is about, despite the wishes of others regarding defining sex.

Well, I thought those abstracts linked to by @suggestionsplease1 were interesting and thought-provoking, like many other posts on the FWR board. Clearly there's more to the nature of biological sex than I thought.

None of those do anything to prove that sex is not binary.

Some interesting theories and indications, though. I'm keeping an open mind on it - it's obviously a very complex issue with lots of factors in play.

Why does everything have to be celebrated?

This. "Tolerance" used to mean precisely that - you tolerate other people regardless of differences or if you don't agree with them or like their customs. You don't have to like them but you've no right to molest them and they have every right to live their lives freely. And they extend you the same courtesy.

Now it seems to mean you must actively "celebrate" someone else's belief, orientation, whatever. You must - publicly at least - subscribe to theories with which you profoundly disagree. Not doing so can threaten even your livelihood.

This isn't tolerance but shriekmob tyranny.

You've got high level: sex. Then you've got lower level: developmental processes that lead to sex. It's easy to befuddle people by leading them into the thicket of the complicated stuff, developmental processes that lead to sex, so that they lose sight of the straightforward stuff: sex exists because for around a billion years animals from the lowest to the highest have been using it to propagate their lineages. For nearly 100% of the history since the emergence of sex, the organisms using it have not had to pay attention to how complicated it can be at the lower levels.

An analogy is gravity. You ask a theoretical physist how complicated gravity is and you'll have your head spinning for days with concepts like quantum gravity and the basic fact that the gravity we experience is a very simplified version of the underlying reality. So, once you've been gravity befuddled, will you be able to stand up from your chair, walk about your house, manipulate objects, or will it all have become almost impossible because no one fully understands what gravity is?

In my very humble opinion there are certain loud voices who are damaging the LGB + community. I have never seen nor faced the level of homophobia that I now see now on social media

This.

A person with one ovary and one testicle, perhaps?

The Future of Sex and Gender in Psychology: Five Challenges to the Gender Binary

"Janet Shibley Hyde, Rebecca S. Bigler, Daphna Joel, Charlotte Chucky Tate, Sari M. van Anders" 2018

"The view that humans comprise only two types of beings, women and men, a framework that is sometimes referred to as the “gender binary,” played a profound role in shaping the history of psychological science. In recent years, serious challenges to the gender binary have arisen from both academic research and social activism. This review describes five sets of empirical findings, spanning multiple disciplines, that fundamentally undermine the gender binary. These sources of evidence include: neuroscience findings that refute sexual dimorphism of the human brain; behavioral neuroendocrinology findings that challenge the notion of genetically fixed, non-overlapping, sexually dimorphic hormonal systems; psychological findings that highlight the similarities between men and women; psychological research on transgender and nonbinary individuals’ identities and experiences; and developmental research suggesting that the tendency to view gender/sex as a meaningful, binary category is culturally determined and malleable. Costs associated with reliance on the gender binary and recommendations for future research, as well as clinical practice, are outlined. "

I have to ask again, what is it about this document that suggestions believes is evidence that sex is not binary?

Because this doesn't bring concrete evidence of sex not being binary.

Please tell us suggestions what in this document do you feel is evidence strong enough to convince people that sex is not binary.

"No Way Out of the Binary: A Critical History of the Scientific Production of Sex"

Veronica Sanz (Department of Gender and Women’s Studies, University of California, Berkeley)

www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/692517

Abstract
This article examines the concept of sex as a biological “fact” in Western science from the eighteenth century to the present and, in particular, how the binary definition of sex has been maintained despite empirical flaws and contradictory data. Since the 1990s, feminist science studies scholars have produced detailed empirical accounts of the different historical periods of the sciences of sex, analyzing how different scientific disciplines have focused on various body parts as markers of biological sex, including anatomy, gonads, chromosomes, hormones, genes, and the brain. Despite all these works, I argue that the concrete mechanisms by which binary sex has operated have yet to be understood. This article deals with the history, changes, fractures, and alliances in sex research and traces how the uncritical commitment to the two-sex model has operated in the different areas of the biological sciences. Further, I show how the different variables of sex have intertwined with each other through their scientific history in ways that have been used to maintain a shaky yet persistent concept of binary sex.

I am assuming that suggestions has full access to this one and can post the relevant sections they feel is convincing as evidence (ie. not theory) that sex is not binary.

I am looking forward to reading this one. Does this person also have a masters or doctorate in developmental biology or evolutionary biology? Or is this person looking again at the more philosophical side of sex, which is purely theoretical and doesn't over ride the physical reality of the body?

"Challenging the binary: Gender/sex and the bio-logics of normalcy"

L. Zachary DuBois, Heather Shattuck-Heidorn
First published: 06 June 2021

Background
We are witnessing renewed debates regarding definitions and boundaries of human gender/sex, where lines of genetics, gonadal hormones, and secondary sex characteristics are drawn to defend strict binary categorizations, with attendant implications for the acceptability and limits of gender identity and diversity

Discussion and Conclusions
We conclude with guidelines and methodological suggestions for how to engage gender/sex and gender identity in research. Our goal is to contribute a framework that all human biologists can use, not just those who work with gender or sexually diverse populations. We hope that in bringing this perspective to bear in human biology, that novel ideas and applications will emerge from within our own discipline.

And this one too, is inaccessible. Have you read it? Can you copy the sections you find convincing? Can you post a link to an open version which is more important so we can see the context?

No, they may be interesting but they don't prove that there is more than two sexes.

Every human on the planet was born from a male gamete fertilising a female one.

And even if there was, it doesn't mean that kids need to see rainbow dildo butt monkey in a library.

Since when can men suffer 'post-partum' depression? Or does the writer not know what 'post-partum' actually means?

Apologies this paper was referring to this link

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.23623