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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Handmaid, Handmaiden.

283 replies

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 18:38

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

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LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:38

@Onnabugeisha, I have thanks.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:39

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:36

So, can the word “TERF” be used too then?

Quite!

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Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:39

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:38

Well, useful idiot for sexist men is simply too long

See, it’s not said with understanding and pity….it’s used as an insult to call other women stupid bootlickers of misogynists.

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:41

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:38

@Onnabugeisha, I have thanks.

You are wrong about the Aunts 🤷‍♀️
So perhaps you’re not remembering what you read then.
They’re not how Netflix showed them….

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:41

Well it's both sexist and unreasonable to assume women cannot be stupid. They certainly can be.

The bootlicking, that's what you said! Own it

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:41

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:39

See, it’s not said with understanding and pity….it’s used as an insult to call other women stupid bootlickers of misogynists.

Or more simply. They are mugs.

WildIris · 10/02/2023 19:41

OP, if you want to have a discussion about the terms women use about other women, then do exactly that - ask questions, agree with some points, disagree with others, provide examples, suggestions, etc.

I think it’s a worthwhile discussion.

But you are being quite aggressive and goady.

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:42

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:41

Or more simply. They are mugs.

Four pages in and the debate is over, we all now agree it is an insult said to other women.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:44

Astralitzia · 10/02/2023 19:38

It's like any insult - a lazy way to shut down, dismiss, or invalidate those you don't agree with.

This is what I feel like too.

For full disclosure to the poster who says I'm being disingenuous, I have been called a handmaid. I've also seen it on a couple of threads recently where a woman posts something a poster disagrees with, they've casually called them a handmaid.

I've actually long had a problem with the term, ever since I first heard it used in this context.

And again, it's not that I have a problem with there being a term to refer to women who perform to the benefit of thr patriarchy, because these women definitely do exist. When I first learned of the manosphere and all this great stuff, they were called Honey Badgers, because of an initial group of women in Australia who popularised the movement. They've also been called FemRA.

It's not that I have a problem with the new meaning of the word, it's more an exploration and discomfort with the fact that Handmaid, of all possible terms, has been used. For the reasons outlined in my OP.

OP posts:
CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:44

sorry I think it's *feMRA.

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ShireWifeofNigelFarage · 10/02/2023 19:45

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:37

Oh my, yes I did mean to post on the other one.

While I completely respect the rights and freedoms of speech, I did make this thread, whether people like it or not, in good faith and just because you (general you) as a feminist don't agree it's important or relevant, I see no reason why I as a feminist cannot post what feels relevant and important to me.

Therefore, can I take this opportunity to say that I have posted incorrectly on Sex and Gender and perhaps if you prefer threads about sex and gender you could post on some other threads instead of this one.

In particular @EndlessTea , you've already said ages ago that you find this thread bollocks, yet continue to post on it just to take the piss.

Again, this discussion may not be relevant to you, and you may have absolutely no problem using the word handmaid and see know inherent patriarchy or hypocrisy in its use, but I do and I've been genuinely interested in most of the responses. So for the final time, just because you don't find the topic interesting or relevant, I ask why you feel the need to keep posting if that's the case, and ask that you maybe stop.

If any more posts come up actually talking about the use of the word, I'll be reading them, but I hope you understand if I don't continue to engage in the same poster pointing out over and over again that they don't agree with the premise of the thread.

If you report your own thread Mumsnet will move it over for you.

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:46

@EndlessTea excellent points.

ComfortablyDazed · 10/02/2023 19:46

Maybe there could be a list of approved words, terms and phrases for calling out women whose posts are littered with internalised misogyny.

There was a thread recently where the OP posted the statement ‘not everything is internalised misogyny’, and when posters dug a little deeper, it turns out she made a comment on another thread about abortion that was the very definition of ‘internalised misogyny’.

She was called out for it on that thread, didn’t like it, and so started a new thread to complain about it.

Essentially, it seems, women don’t like being called out for being anti-feminist - and don’t like any of the words or phrases used, whether they’re pejorative (handmaiden/handmaid), or simply descriptive (internalised misogyny).

So - it has got to the point where calling women out for being sexist, or for prioritising men over women, is now misogynistic.

Great silencing technique.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:47

WildIris · 10/02/2023 19:41

OP, if you want to have a discussion about the terms women use about other women, then do exactly that - ask questions, agree with some points, disagree with others, provide examples, suggestions, etc.

I think it’s a worthwhile discussion.

But you are being quite aggressive and goady.

I don't think I am with the majority of posters, I have taken points and it's not really a "debate" as such, I am just interested in the views of others and their perspective. A couple of posters have engaged in bad faith though, I don't really see why I have to not react to that. If you interpret me being defensive as goady, that's fair, but equally I feel like I've been goaded in turn. I prefer to go on focusing on the actual discussion

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EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:47

Onnabugeisha · 10/02/2023 19:42

Four pages in and the debate is over, we all now agree it is an insult said to other women.

I don’t think ‘mug’ is often used as an insult. “You are a mug!”

It is more frequently a description “she is a mug”

Even a plea “don’t be a mug”.

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 19:49

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:39

Quite!

I mean, personally I find TERF in itself about as insulting as handmaiden

The bit I don't like is the violent "die in a grease fire", "kill all TERFS", decapitation etc
See here terfisaslur.com/2-abuse-harassment-and-dehumanizing-language/

I have never, ever seen similar language or intent aimed at handmaidens

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:49

We can just call them mugs? Seems to work okay.

myveryownelectrickitten · 10/02/2023 19:49

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:04

This thread is bollocks.

How long have any you of you been involved in feminism for? Tsk.

^^This.

EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:51

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:49

We can just call them mugs? Seems to work okay.

I’m going to be a stickler.

”Mugs” is the generic term.

”Handmaiden” is the specific.

😂

LaviniasBigBloomers · 10/02/2023 19:53

ComfortablyDazed · 10/02/2023 19:46

Maybe there could be a list of approved words, terms and phrases for calling out women whose posts are littered with internalised misogyny.

There was a thread recently where the OP posted the statement ‘not everything is internalised misogyny’, and when posters dug a little deeper, it turns out she made a comment on another thread about abortion that was the very definition of ‘internalised misogyny’.

She was called out for it on that thread, didn’t like it, and so started a new thread to complain about it.

Essentially, it seems, women don’t like being called out for being anti-feminist - and don’t like any of the words or phrases used, whether they’re pejorative (handmaiden/handmaid), or simply descriptive (internalised misogyny).

So - it has got to the point where calling women out for being sexist, or for prioritising men over women, is now misogynistic.

Great silencing technique.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it was ever thus. Though I'm not sure what the equivalent was in the 80s, Tory maybe?

I try to hold compassion and just assume women haven't seen it yet, or can't see it. Which is fair enough, sometimes I wish I could unsee it because it's exhausting.

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 19:53

ComfortablyDazed · 10/02/2023 19:46

Maybe there could be a list of approved words, terms and phrases for calling out women whose posts are littered with internalised misogyny.

There was a thread recently where the OP posted the statement ‘not everything is internalised misogyny’, and when posters dug a little deeper, it turns out she made a comment on another thread about abortion that was the very definition of ‘internalised misogyny’.

She was called out for it on that thread, didn’t like it, and so started a new thread to complain about it.

Essentially, it seems, women don’t like being called out for being anti-feminist - and don’t like any of the words or phrases used, whether they’re pejorative (handmaiden/handmaid), or simply descriptive (internalised misogyny).

So - it has got to the point where calling women out for being sexist, or for prioritising men over women, is now misogynistic.

Great silencing technique.

That's a fair point, and I can see how anyone who is acting in a misogynistic way would reject being called out that way, especially if they're women and it's internalised.

I do genuinely more have a problem with the term Handmaid though. I'm seeing it used more and there is just something so extremely uncomfortable about it, especially when the word itself is so damn patriarchal about the word, which makes it even weirder given what it's being used for.

OP posts:
EndlessTea · 10/02/2023 19:54

I do genuinely more have a problem with the term Handmaid though. I'm seeing it used more

Where/when?

Any links?

LexMitior · 10/02/2023 19:55

@EndlessTea - I agree.

Compassion for all the mugs and handmaidens out there

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 19:56

just something so extremely uncomfortable about it, especially when the word itself is so damn patriarchal about the word

Well yeah. You need to use a patriarchal word to describe someone upholding the patriarchy, no?

CandlelightGlow · 10/02/2023 20:00

AdamRyan · 10/02/2023 19:56

just something so extremely uncomfortable about it, especially when the word itself is so damn patriarchal about the word

Well yeah. You need to use a patriarchal word to describe someone upholding the patriarchy, no?

What? Why would you need to use a word that enforces patriarchal tropes against women in order to describe women?

What I'm saying is it's a misogynistic word that is being used to describe misogynistic women; therefore there is an irony in its use.

It's like saying you'd have to use a racist word in order to describe somebody else as racist.

What's wrong with describing people who are being misogynistic as misogynists? Why does there need to be a gendered word, based on female pain and reinforced patriarchal negative views of women?

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