Handmaid, Handmaiden.

[CandlelightGlow]

Can someone explain why it's been deemed appropriate to call women who appear to be defending men or considering men in any capacity, handmaids?

Does it mean something else that I'm not aware of? My understanding is it comes from the Margaret Atwood novels, referring to women who are forced into ritualistic rape, pregnancy and childbirth.

How exactly does it link to a woman who in one's opinion, chooses to serve the patriarchy. Is it a term feminists should ever use? There is a strong connotation of victim blaming if you are choosing to refer to another woman as a willing handmaid. How is it justifiable?

I'm not asking for examples of when you would consider someone fitting the definition of "handmaiden". I've seen this term thrown around on a couple of threads recently and I'm concerned that it's become a term used largely by women, to insult other women, often in the context of feminist discussions, and I find it interesting that given this very particular context, it's deemed acceptable to use? Again, given the highly misogynistic connotation feeding into the "willing female victim" narrative that already plagues patriarchal rhetoric.

Sorry to further tone police, but if we are going to coin terms like, 'Sturgeon,' 'Sturgeoning,' or, 'she's trying to pull off a Sturgeon,' could we remember the capital 'S'? It would be wrong to malign an entire fish species.

I wonder if your question really matters that much, insofar as I think when you were called a handmaiden (which can be used as a phrase in totally unfeminist discussions -
"Archaeology is the handmaiden to history" is a widely known phrase in certain circles and in that sense handmaiden means subservient and diminished. Do you think that this means that archaeologists have been raped and coerced?! Do you think the phrase should never be used again?), I think that you know what people were saying. They were not calling you a sex slave, but someone serving the patriarchy. I think you know that. Isn't that just evolution of language?

I do think that calling people names is not usually any more helpful in the context of an argument, though? Would you prefer someone to say instead "I think that your views really just make you an apologist for misogyny"? For future reference

I'd also like to ask you a question, given you have been called a handmaiden and the combative approach here that have taken suggesting you like rational discussion and attempts to understand arguments from the other side: why do you think that you make elaborate attempts to centre and empathise with male interests over female ones?

I;m very very clearly not going to get an interesting discussion here. Any poster who would have been half way interested will have been put off pages and pages ago, when it just became a back and forth between a couple of posters.

That would be my guess, too, that she chose that term for her book because part of her initial sources of inspiration included the American far-right Evangelical Protestantism with its literal reading of the Bible. This made it something many readers could fit into their own frame of the world, i.e., the reference to good, modest, silent, obedient Christian women who did what they were told as that was the divine wish.

I have not seen the terms used now by GC feminists in the sense that would imply victim-blaming. Rather, the implicit assumption is that the women accused of handmaidening are fully aware of whose needs they choose to prioritise (those of male people) while still regarding themselves as feminists.

Sorry that should mean un-feminist-related discussions. Archaeology and history can be compatible with feminism!

Good point.

Noted.

Poor sturgeons, it would be very unfair to mistake them for Minions to the MenFolx.

Surrended wives, I think, IIR FloralBunting’s posts C?

Yes I think that focusing on discussing, unpicking and even attacking the individual view point is much more useful than writing someone off with an insult.

In answer to your archeology point, absolutely, and I could be totally, wildly wrong in my assumption as to the context in which the term handmaid has been used, and this could be influenced by the impact THT had on me. I do genuinely still believe I'm not wrong that the term is being used with the books/show in mind, but the scope could definitely be less than I thought. I'm not sure really how I feel about the term in general though, even the HOP context. I regret that the discussion has become more of a "should we use the term" because posters have assumed I'm trying to police language etc, but I was really looking at it from more of a philosophical point of view. I do think it's wrong, but I'm not stating it's wrong just to get people to stop using it, if that makes sense? I wanted to share why I felt so uncomfortable with the term, and wondered if people agreed.

In answer to your last question, I absolutely do not make elaborate attempts to centre men. My post here was solely focused on women, terms referring to women, and terms used mostly by women.

That does make sense, it's interesting though because in the books, the hand maids are not really seen in that subservient light, I'd say it was more the wives.

The hand maids are still seen as temptresses, who invite male attention and abuse. Even though they're making babies, there is none of the reverence of motherhood for them, only the sinful connotations of lust and sex.

The Romans were outnumbered by their slaves. They realised that just cruelty and oppression would lead to rebellions and uprisings so they established a system whereby some slaves could be rewarded for cooperation with higher status, freedom and the possibility of becoming slave owners themselves. This meant that, instead of coming together and fighting for freedom, slaves competed against each other and collaborated with the system. This has been a model for most of the injustices in the world.

I've given my take, and am interested in others.

Your "take" was based on an uninformed and wrong assumption that the term comes from Atwood.

That's such a good point.

I do try and take this into account, when I see women being overtly misogynistic, but it is so insanely infuriating to see. I try to remember that lots of women are acting in self preservation and as a result of trauma, but it's still hard to see play out.

It's worse when you step beyond real life and into the world of influencers though. There's a youtuber called JustPearlyThings, and I just despair that in a world where the likes of Andrew Tate are popular, we now have women who are also seeking popularity based solely on their willingness to be sexist toward their own demographic.

Poor sturgeons, it would be very unfair to mistake them for Minions to the MenFolx.

I like Minions to the Menfolx, it definitely has potential.

Thanks!

I was going for something gender neutral and inclusive - Nonbinary AFABs are the new Handmaidens!

Getting real Radical Notion vibes from this thread. Or maybe disapproving head girl from Brighton? 😂😂

Hope everyone feels suitably reprimanded for their use of non approved language and will return tomorrow using only the pre approved language for feminists.

Most bizarre thread.
I'm glad I got more history on dune etymological.
But if you ask a question and it is answered, I don't see the point of asking the question multiple times in the hope you'll get the answer you wanted?
There was an original insinuation we were calling women sex slaves unwittingly, which has been refuted and now an insistence that the modern form of a slightly different word still has a sex slave connotation. No one I know has ever called anyone else a handmaid. And I've never seen handmaiden thrown as an insult. Its context is always one in which a woman upholds the patriarchy. It feels like one of the posters felt slighted and can't comprehend that she was genuinely being told to stop furthering men's interest to the detriment of women? Or is there a push to get handmaiden to mean female sex slave when it doesn't? I don't get the disagreement...

Dune etymological? Sigh... etymology

HandmaidEN.

It's existed well before the tv series or even the novel. It simply means 'in service to'. So someone who does as they are bid.

I think it's called "I've been called a handmaiden and I don't like it".

So someone who unquestioningly parrots 'TWAW' is being a good little handmaiden, repeating what she's told she should say/think.

I’ve not been put off by the pages of postings. Have found it genuinely interesting and informative. Probably would have used handmaiden / handmaiden interchangeably not being familiar with the biblical references.

My ‘takeaway’ from the initial and subsequent discussion was that @CandlelightGlow felt the term (either handmaid or handmaiden) to be a term women feminists should not use against other women - assuming that there’s a shared understanding of who’s included as ‘women’ - because it’s a misogynistic and victim blaming term.

Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the posts, but that’s what’s come across to me as the prime argument here. Points supporting this argument is that using the term as a pejorative label is reductive and hurtful (?) along with other labels such as incel.

This made me reflect on how I’d use the term/s. To me, calling someone a handmaiden is not victim blaming that person. I see it along the lines of what some other posters have said ie a handmaid or a handmaiden is someone who collaborates with or supports, however inadvertently, or goes along with or doesn’t question a patriarchal system.

*handmaid / handmaiden … damn autocorrect

From what I can see in the Bible, handmaidens were not the wife in a house but within people’s households, and there could be a reproductive/sexual element to their presence.

Margaret Atwood’s handmaids were taken into households too
obviously.

Genesis 25:12

Now these [are] the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham
sarata.com/bible/verses/about/handmaid.html

I decided to save the thread to repost it the next time it comes along.

Perhaps the only way to stop repetitions of it altogether, would be to write an even more popular TV series called ‘Handmaidens of The Patriarchy’ - it could be a sympathetic perspective of ‘Aunt Lydia’ types - their social lives and peer group, as they strive to win male favour and approval.