Keir Starmer confirms Labour will push ahead with self ID (7th Feb 2023)

[Thelnebriati]

Despite everything that has happened over the past few days;

Ben Bradshaw
''A warm welcome for @ Keir_Starmer as he recommits to reforming the UK’s out of date gender recognition process at tonight’s @ LGBTLabour @ LGBTHM
reception in Parliament''

twitter.com/BenPBradshaw/status/1623032232284721189

I’m a lifelong natural Labour voter and am fucking fuming that Labour have gone so far in support of this men’s sexual rights campaign.
And the Lib Dems and the Greens who would be my next bests have thrown women under the bus. And the Tories have too! I could never vote Tory because they are so economically incompetent and bitter social divisions and brutal economic disparities have massively worsened entirely under their watch and have got the UK on its knees at the moment.

So I now dont have anyone to vote for which is horrible. I’ll just have to see who says what, nearer the time.

Its just my genuine question In all this why the Tories have seemed to have attracted some gender critical women’s trust when they have had such a untrustworthy record in over a decade in power. The only GRA reform (apart from the £5 certificates) the Tories have attempted was… to BRING IN SELF ID. They only backed off slowly when they saw nobody wants it. Not because they cared for women. What’s reassuring about that?

What you show in Wales under Labour is absolutely awful OldCrone and shows very problematic sexist thinking and zero electoral strategy on the part of the Welsh government. They should be ashamed. However, Wales do not have gender recognition devolved to them. They can’t enact this stuff. It’s all posturing.

I think Slothtoes that if you want to know what Tory voters think of their party then you're on the wrong thread.

It just goes to show that fighting sexism is an endless struggle and we will have to carry on making these arguments to politicians of all stripes until we have solid legal protections. They will all respond to different arguments so we need women to make them in all different ways. (Which is why I find the factions currently fighting in gender critical circles is such an annoying waste of time.)

In the practical politics of it, men’s sexual right’s campaigning can probably come to dominate a discussion of 60 people in the Senedd in a way that I’d hope is much more difficult to do in the same discussion in Westminster, where the Equality Act is decided. The Equality Act will always be a brake to devolved GRA reform that discriminates against sex. In the Westminster Parliament only 40 seats represent Welsh constituencies out of 650 constituencies or so in total. So unless GRA powers are suddenly devolved to Wales, which would cause uproar right now, the Welsh government knows full well they do not actually have the power to make the change they are saying they want.

I think the Westminster Labour Party is very split on this issue, and just like Brexit are absolutely shitting themselves about how to manage it. Starmers current position is to try to blandly appeal to everyone, which won’t work for long.

Starmers current position is to try to blandly appeal to everyone, which won’t work for long.

Well he's got "bland" down to a tee at least.

Is there any evidence to suggest Westminster Labour is split on this issue?
Anything at all?
Because I'm not prepared to take it on trust.

The evidence of a split is very clear. On one side there is Rosie Duffield and on the other is the rest of the PLP.

That's how it looks to me too JanesLittleGirl. If I've missed something I'd genuinely like to see it but I need more than assurances that the shadow cabinet is stuffed with GC members who are too chicken shit scared to say so.

And Tonia Antoniazzi. We've definitely got 2.

Is 2 MPs a split? If there were 2 MPs saying we should legalise all drugs or prostitution, or lower the age of consent for example, that would not be called a split. They'd be regarded as fringe, and not representing party policy.

My apologies to Tonia.

If there is a split it's a closeted one.

Obviously there’s been no vote to test the PLP on any specific question so actually nobody knows any numbers publicly. I have zero insider knowledge here. I have no idea how many MPs would call themselves ‘gender critical’ or would be happy to define the sexes accurately (..which for all I know may be seen politically as different questions..) but Labour backbenchers (in previous govt) suggested there were up to 40 GC MPs which to me does suggests a split.

amp.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/01/gay-and-trans-rights-issues-divide-both-tories-and-labour

I would love to know the proportion now after the SNP debacle. Rosie Duffield referred to ‘many’ in an article that should have Kier Starmer absolutely burning with shame:

^‘And I know I’m not the only MP in the party who thinks this — I’m just the only one who feels I have nothing to lose by speaking out. After all, there’s no front-bench job offer for the only Labour MP in my county.
Many of us know that self-identifying as a woman does not make a person a biological woman who shares our lived experience.
But for obvious reasons, these views are not voiced outside of closed rooms or private and secret WhatsApp groups.
Even there, the most senior MPs often do not post a single word; they know exactly what’s at stake and not many of them want to be me. So for now, they mostly remain silent.’^

unherd.com/2023/01/the-labour-party-has-a-woman-problem/

So yes, they all need to find their long overdue anti-sexist, anti-homophobic reality-based backbone and nobody’s disputing that.
But I don’t think it’s fair to assume there isn’t an internal struggle going on over this. Especially since the SNP have shown up clearly that huge swathes of the public disagree with them about this issue. I’d imagine several party leaders are desperately trying to listen to what has been going on and to get back in touch with the public on this issue.

Even there, the most senior MPs often do not post a single word; they know exactly what’s at stake and not many of them want to be me. So for now, they mostly remain silent.’

I had wondered if that may have been the case. They're not stupid, they've seen the damage that the TRA zealot propaganda machine is capable of doing to people. All the more plaudits for Rosie's bravery, in my book.

I completely agree SinnerBoy

I'm not sure why people think voting for tories is better, they're in power now and although self ID isn't law in practice it is happening and they aren't stopping it.

I normally vote for a 'left' party but they're all captured annoyingly. Nothing can convince me to vote Conservative though, they have been rubbish on many things and are also rubbish on this. I'm not sure why some of you pretend otherwise?

I suspect Keir will try to avoid doing much of anything with gender stuff, as I think it's becoming more obvious it's unpopular with the general population but there is a very vocal youth population who will kick off if he suggests they'll drop it, which would lose them votes. It's lose-lose.

I don't know who I'll vote for or even if I'll vote at next elections, there's still plenty of time for further developments

But I don’t think it’s fair to assume there isn’t an internal struggle going on over this.
You may think it's unfair but nor can I see any evidence whatsoever that there is one.
And after the multi-debacle of the last few weeks I'd have expected at least one of these MPs to break ranks.

Genuine Q - why does self ID harm women?

A GRC doesn't really do very much practically day to day so what difference does selfID make to anyone not trans?

Even in prison having a GRC doesn't mean you automatically go to your new genders prison. The MOJ decide.

Trans people can change their gender in passport, drivers licence, NHS gender markers, almost all documentation for daily life without a GRC. They can just make the changes.

A GRC just means people get a new birth certificate which means they get married and have death cert in changed gender.

And a trans person even with a GRC doesn't get automatic entry to single sex spaces - these are protected by the Equality Act.

You talk about men in women's changing rooms but you don't have to show your birth certificate to go into a changing room so whether there's selfID or not, anyone can walk in anywhere. Having a GRC doesn't really make a difference.

The biggest threat to women is... shocker... cis gender men. Men are the biggest threat to women www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/facts-and-figures

You'd argue that transwomen are men - but really, if a man wants to abuse a women or child he doesn't need to get a GRC and pretend to be trans. He's got ample opportunity to do whatever he wants to do!

There's no evidence from other countries selfID harms women. www.openlynews.com/i/?id=21757767-4909-4844-922f-41903ff042f8

I'm sure theres examples of a few transwomen harming women, there will be, but they're the exception not the rule. If a man who is not trans wants to harm someone, he will, he doesn't need a GRC!

So really, what impact does selfID have on women? When having a GRC doesn't actually do anything on a day to day practical level.

Is that copy pasta @Cantthinkofabetternameforhere ?

Are you asking if I copy and pasted? I wrote the post myself just now. I genuinely don't understand the GRC threat to women.

They're just birth certs. They don't do anything practical.

A GRC seals up info and makes it illegal to share it.

It’s why GIDS don’t have any data on adults who were prescribed puberty blockers.

It’s a terrible bit of law.

Cantthinkofabetternameforhere · Today 15:56

I wrote the post myself just now. I genuinely don't understand the GRC threat to women. They're just birth certs. They don't do anything practical.

They embolden them to go into women's spaces; predators, I mean. If challenged, they have hissy fits and the staff either say that they can't do anything, or scold the complainers.

There are loads of such cases, don't you read the news? It's not just prisons, but "Karen White," "Bardie Kardashian," "Katie Dolakowski" and most recently, "Isla Graham," are all examples. "Karen White" sexually assaulted a further two women in prison.

Dolakowski sexually assaulted two little girls in a women's toilet, in supermarkets.

And what about Wii Spa, in California?

They're just birth certs. They don't do anything practical.

They're records of facts. Records that belong to the state. In no other area do we lie about such records. If I get married, then divorced, the record of marriage isn't hidden. It's a fact. The marriage happened. The birth happened.

Besides, if they don’t do anything practical, why not just repeal them? Now that same sex marriage is a thing and the pension age has been equalised, no need for a GRC anyway.

Look for the thread called 'Break it down for me' Cantthinkofabetternameforhere - it may take you a while to read it but all the info you've asked for is there.

Back to Labour and this anonymous group of 30-odd dissenting MPs: I read that Guardian article at the time, and the one in the Times the other weekend, and I've read various references to them in this board but unless they find the gumption to speak out, all this evidences to me is cynicism and cowardice.

None of these people have a GRC!

if men want to abuse women, they won't need a GRC to do it.

800 officers in the MET are being investigated for sexual abuse. By the same logic allowing men into the MET encourages predators so we shouldn't allow any.