Gender Critical Disputes - Radical Notion special edition free to read online

[IwantToRetire]

Cant say I have heard of Radical Notion. They say:

THE RADICAL NOTION was founded in 2020 to create a space for the resurgent wave of feminist thinking and activism. This not-for-profit magazine is run by an all-women collective of radical and socialist feminists. We are committed to the materialist analysis of sex-based oppression, and to challenging the material and symbolic structures of male dominance. This moment is a historic opportunity to deepen and widen the analysis of all aspects of women’s political condition, and its foundational role in all systems of extraction and domination.

We welcome words and images from women of all nationalities, classes, ethnicities and backgrounds to illuminate the meaning of feminist politics in their lives, and to create a global picture of this political moment. Our current battle, and the social, political and environmental unravellings we see all around us are, at their root, crises of patriarchy. We want to seize this moment to speak that truth.

theradicalnotion.org/gender-critical-disputes/

It seems quite expensive to subscribe but they have made this issue free to read online. A lot of it seems to be the ongoing antagonism (meaning the issues are real but seem to be motivated as much by personal fallouts) between radical feminist and socialist feminist gender critical women.

Some may remember this thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4662757-womens-place-uk-filia-event-the-elephant-ignored-yet-again and the revelation that WPUK seems to now be linked to the group Actual Gender Critical Left, who endlessly snipe about Karin Dansky and KJK.

Anyhow posting in case anyone wants to have a read.

Still not sure why some women think in the day of virtual opportunites to talk directly to other women, they need to go down the routed of "publishing" as though their ideas are somehow special and shouldn't be submitted to the rough and tumble on online forums like this one!

What tactics do you specifically mean, and if you could answer that with one point per sentence that would be great.

Al lI see is word mince when you 'explain' things. So I have absolutely no idea what the fuck you are banging on about apart from slinging mud around the place.

Typical! I go to all trouble of creating an alias for the sole purpose of parodying the insane, patronising, accusatory diatribes of members of the Actual Gender Critical Left and along come these Jayney-Come-Latelies stealing all my thunder!!!

I'm going to back to watching a loop of KJK at Glasgow declaring "I NEVER LOSE!!" and finish scribbling "DaNgErOuS DeMaGoGuE" all over the screen in multi-coloured felt-tips until I can't see her any more!!

Sound-off, obviously, while singing, "We'll keep the Red Flag flying here" at the top of my lungs!

Then I'm going to tear out all the pages of the special "STFU You Idiots!" edition of The RADICAL NOTION and paste them over all the windows and mirrors and never leave the house again so I don't have to look at anything else - ever!

Think you can outdo me, Winter!?! Lightweight!!

Ok - I'm going, I'm going. I'm sure you all think I deserve it but I feel exactly as I expect you hoped I'd feel. I hope you have all at least got some lovely intra-group bonding from the perceived outgroup threat

@EndlessTea, though I don't agree with your analysis, or think that it would exempt anyone here from considering how they sound to outsiders generally, black women specifically - I really do appreciate you taking the time to engage and explain your thinking.

I absolutely agree @ShireWifeofNigelFarage that nationalism is a form of IDPOL. As I said on the other thread, despite what one might initially think, there is a continuum of 'people who benefit from the destruction of a shared material reality' and it has Queer Theory at one end and Trumpism at the other.

I don't think continuum is quite the right word and I'm rushing but I hope you get what I mean - that 'anti-materialism' is cynically encouraged by interest groups who on the surface seem to be diametrically opposed.

Bye all.

No, I questioned your motives. I was prepared to believe that you were unaware of how your post initially started out to be interesting until you got to the part where you said

"Still, fucking depressing when a feminist board on a forum whose usp has always been that women's voices can actually be heard, seems to be increasingly dominated by women who are uncertain, at best, whether they are feminists."

Making it quite clear that you were actually making the Farage Feminist accusation a more generalised one on closer reading.

Which people objected to and you doubled down and continued to fling insults.

What is the truth you actually seek?

That there are many people now involved in pushing back specifically gender identity ideological impacts on laws and policies and society in general? Yes, we write about it every day.

That there are some posters on this board that have different political views? Yes. We know. And frankly, I consider this a good thing because it really does mean that this board is not an echo chamber.

So what that someone wrote a post about Trump. Did that post get supportive comments? Yet, pages ago you used a post about Trump to make a generalisation about FWR. And maybe you took people's offence of such a negative generalisation to be that poster's actually supported Trump??? I don't know. You told posters to 'let it go', yet you were the poster who introduced it.

That some posters are not as interested in feminism as many, maybe the majority, of the rest of the board ? Absolutely. Nothing to deny there. It is well known. Often they are only here to chide and goad.

That this board has corralled all these discussions under 'sex and gender' and that makes it a single issue board? Of course that was the expected outcome of the split board. Were YOU here with us fighting against the split?

You were asked repeatedly to clarify your posts. On one later post you did clarify that you were writing about what you believed was the dominant narrative of FWR.

"Mine is a general point about the dominant narrative on MN Feminism - it's quite clear if you read my OP."

Yet, not once did you previously acknowledge your sneering first post. That set the tone for the rest of your contributions. You patronisingly told a poster that they could get therapy for their paranoia "that someone who disagrees with you is sneering at you"...when your posts all point to you sneering at others.

So, please tell us what was the truth that you are seeking confirmation of initially? That the board no longer fits a small political group's desired talking points and political aspirations?

Reading the article that is the basis of discussion for this thread and the other published opinions of that group of people, including the Facebook page, I really don't think that is the negative that you obviously believe it is.

Dear Actual Gender Critical Left (tm)

I’d love to give you some pointers on how to fashion an effective tin foil hat but I know you can’t be seen to listen to advice from a FARAGE FEMINIST.

That said, I hear we’re both really into our special identity groups so I’m sure we have way more in common with PURE LEFTY FEMINISM than we do with all these careful critical thinkers and centrist fence sitters on Mumsnet!
We can talk about how you clever, socialist academic ladies want to kick the working class, whitevanwomen and the uppity Tory immigrants (cough! Suella Braverman, cough! Kemi Badenoch) out of Feminism and keep the movement all to your, lovely, pure, fragrant selves… and how eerily similar you sound to those who campaign to keep Britain for the British.

Shame you aren’t a bit more self aware, we could’ve had a blast! All bigots together!

With love
from
Feminist Fans of Nigel Farage (tm)

absolutely agree @ShireWifeofNigelFarage that nationalism is a form of IDPOL. As I said on the other thread, despite what one might initially think, there is a continuum of 'people who benefit from the destruction of a shared material reality' and it has Queer Theory at one end and Trumpism Labour, Greens, Lib Dems & the SNP and people who throw around baseless accusation of racism at the other

Made your example more immediately relevant.

HTH!

I remember how I used to feel intimidated.

It’s how how the trans thing flourished on Tumblr. People were made to feel bad about themselves and as though they had no right to a free thought, a voice or an opinion if they were either white, male or middle class, etc. De facto - you have nothing to add, say, etc. So people started ‘identifying as’ the ‘most oppressedest minority’ so they didn’t have to feel bad about themselves and they could be allowed to have a voice.

I get how men don’t have much insight into what is sexist/misogynist, from a female perspective, and they can be pretty annoying (in a male-socialised way) in a feminist environment, but, two things, 1. I don’t think race discrimination maps neatly onto sex discrimination because sex divides our whole species, across every family, where as ‘race’ has fuzzy borders, it maps more across lands where entire communities are of the same ‘race’ and also, through sexual intercourse, a person can have a mixed racial heritage. 2. Having already said that men can be annoying, in a feminist context, I do think they are able to make a judgement about what is sexist or misogynist too at times. Sometimes they can see things more accurately than a lot of women - look at what has happened to Brendan O’Neill compared to Nicola Sturgeon.

I think Winter is pretty out of date with the rigid idea that only people from a group can make judgements or contributions about the treatment of that group.

FFS

"I'm sure you all think I deserve it but I feel exactly as I expect you hoped I'd feel."

Do you really not see the hypocrisy in that sentence?

You even have admitted that you posted with the intention to shame other posters.

"You think my intention was to shame you all in order to self-soothe and the points I made were just random ones I plucked from the air?"

The degree of moral superiority that has been displayed here on this thread is really enlightening.

And directly in keeping with the attitudes of some of the group who still have a sin page published on the internet about a woman who they disagree with.

I said upthread @AlisonDonut

"By Farage feminism, I meant those who cynically characterise (in order to dismiss) left-liberal feminism as a purity spiral, and who seek to convince their audience that if you don’t believe British society is a level playing field you are (in a case of comedy DARVO) an elitist."

There are two points in that sentence, and I agree it is too complex/messy (written in haste) so I will simplify:

"By Farage feminism, I meant those who describe any expression of left-liberal feminism as a 'purity spiral', a dogwhistle term which they cynically misuse to silence it.

"Also, those who say it is 'elitist' to point out inequality, in order to generate an aggressive response in their audience by telling them they are being spoken down to. This is a common strategy used by populists like Farage."

Ok really off now. Have a good rest of day.

You even have admitted that you posted with the intention to shame other posters.

"You think my intention was to shame you all in order to self-soothe and the points I made were just random ones I plucked from the air?"

Eh? Where did I admit anything?! Actually, don't answer, I really do need to step away.

Byee

By Farage feminism, I meant those who describe any expression of left-liberal feminism as a 'purity spiral', a dogwhistle term which they cynically misuse to silence it.

So we are Farage feminists because we oppose people posting about how bad some women are because x,y and z? So we are to let these special proper feminists post whatever they want and not respond because responding is Farage Feminism?

That sounds like a very easy way of 'mud flinging'/silencing people who might have opinions that the special proper feminists won't allow.

Actually it sounds like 'I'll choose someone else to randomly compare these people to as Nazi/TERF/dogwhistle isn't now working to keep them quiet'.

By Farage feminism, I meant those who describe any expression of left-liberal feminism as a 'purity spiral', a dogwhistle term which they cynically misuse to silence it.

A lot of words but zero content, the whole paragraph is just meaningless but full marks for squeezing in the inevitable 'dog whistle'.

Absolute word salad

Wow!
Never seen a self identified feminist call
something ‘a dog whistle’ before!

TRA tactics - your slip is showing.

"By Farage feminism, I meant those who describe any expression of left-liberal feminism as a 'purity spiral', a dogwhistle term which they cynically misuse to silence it."

"Also, those who say it is 'elitist' to point out inequality, in order to generate an aggressive response in their audience by telling them they are being spoken down to. This is a common strategy used by populists like Farage."

And who is doing this? Because the first sentence sounds like hyperbole.

Who describes any expression of left-liberal feminism as a 'purity spiral'? Please post some examples of the posts on this thread that show this meaning of Farage Feminism. And if none on this thread, then from others.

And to be clear, only examples where the term purity spiral has been used that you feel is not relevant.

And then, who is stating that "it is 'elitist' to point out inequality, in order to generate an aggressive response" on this thread.

Again, there seems to be a disconnect in the negative generalisations that have been drawn and that the board is being generally accused of, and the reality.

I had someone tell me last week and 'dog whistle' was not a negative or offensive term.

Yup

it’s an attempt to control people by preventing them from thinking critically and just forcing them to recite received opinions.
It’s done by all authoritarians right to left, but seems especially egregious when done by the left because they tell you they’re good people while trying to shut you down

and as for men deciding for themselves what constitutes misogyny: good

i want men to use their critical faculties to think for themselves about this stuff.
And as you say, some of them have got markedly better at it over recent years

those who say it is 'elitist' to point out inequality, in order to generate an aggressive response in their audience by telling them they are being spoken down to.

This is pretty convoluted.

I can definitely see how ‘elitist’ can be silencing, or rabble-rousing, like David Cameron bemoaning ‘experts’ having opinions on the likely outcomes of Brexit.

But. ‘Elitist to point out inequality’. I have no idea where this could be coming from.

I know sometime users of this board refer can refer to the cliqueyness of certain feminists, who believe that their voice and opinion is entitled to more weight than outsiders, as ‘elitist’ or as ‘Head Girls’ (largely because they tend to flaunt their academic or socialist credentials as justification for assuming their own words have disproportionate weight).

But I have never seen this correlate to members of the clique pointing out inequality.

I am truly flummoxed by that.

I think Winter is pretty out of date with the rigid idea that only people from a group can make judgements or contributions about the treatment of that group.

I’m genuinely surprised at how stale social critical justice now seems.

Perhaps we’re already looking at it in the rear view mirror? I hope so.

There is a mass peakening taking place over the Hogwarts game today. People just want a bit of fun escapism after a couple of shit years and suddenly all the online social justice activists just seem like shrill, vicious, fun-sponges (and hypocrites, because they are using gadgets made with child labour to type up their whingey first world problems).

Eg

Quick summary for anyone joining the thread just now:

Hello, you are all stupid bigots and you get your feminism from Nigel Farage.

Wait, why are you all being so mean to me?

I never said you were stupid bigots.

Okay I did say it, but I didn't mean it. You're too stupid to understand. And racist. You're definitely racist.

Why are you saying you're not racist? That's racist.

Why are you laughing at me? You're all racists and stupid bigots.

I didn't mean it the first time I said it, but now I really do think you're all stupid bigots.

If I'm abusive to you, it's only because you deserve it. You've made me feel terrible now by resisting my abuse. Why don't you just take it, you GRIM HORRENDOUS BIGOTED SHIRE WIVES OF FARAGE?

I'm going now. You've made me sad with your horrible name-calling. Yes I know I was the only one to call names, but you made me do it.

I'm still here but only because you're still stupid bigots.

I know I said I was going but you don't understand, I'm a very important and busy person and I don't have time to make my posts not full of sneering insults and name calling.

Bye. Hope you feel good about what meanies you are.

And another thing...

Indeed @ShireWifeofNigelFarage.

Once you realise that it is a static, crude constructed model of the dynamic and complex relationships between human beings, which really appeals to some people who wanted to be the bullies rather than the bullied, for a change.
Once you see how fervently these people have efforted to force reality to fit their crude model, Procrustes-style.
You think. Nah. No thanks.

For a time I was tearing myself apart and self-flagellating, trying to seek out and banish any unconscious prejudice or unforgivable ignorance. But now, I realise that all the people who were so happy to berate me and ‘educate’ me, turned out to be a right bunch of …… themselves who could do with looking in the fucking mirror.

Fantastic summary

It is a fantastic summary @beastlyslumber but you missed out one thing (from a different poster):

You are all aligning with, standing shoulder to shoulder with, talking to various unmentionables, don't ask me for evidence of this, or if you do I will say I will provide it then somehow forget/not bother, you'll just have to take my word for it because I said so.

^^