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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

736 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

OP posts:
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dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:02

I AM SO CROSS!

Are Safe Schools Alliance keeping tabs on the number of parents who get negative push back / attempts at bullying when trying to raise concerns? Does anyone know?

It IS anti-safeguarding. This is why CHILDREN are having to protest their loss of single sex toilets because the parents are BULLIED by the schools into silence (Not all schools etc....)

If you can't speak up about something as basic as a misrepresentation of a law on a poster, or the fact that girls need single sex toilets, then what CAN you speak up about? Are parents never allowed to speak to each other? Whatsapp is the same as email anyway - it's not twitter it's messages to named specific people. It's modern day 'speaking to people'.

They don't have a leg to stand on but oh for a good lawyer willing to represent parents in this position.

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:06

Whatsapp isn't social media, twitter is social media.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:09

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 19:56

This reeks of a particularly motivated politicially driven member of staff. It's not ok to threaten parents with the police.

You know you've said nothing defamatory. Take that line in particular directly to the chair of governors and make a complaint. Threatening parents in this way would totally silence any parents less confident and assured: it's bullying and it's anti safeguarding.

I suspect the chair of governors may have been one of the parents to report this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:11

And I can't delete the messages, it is more than 2 days and 12 hours since I posted them. WhatsApp has a limit on the "delete for all" option.

OP posts:
dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:11

The chair of governors should be acting in the bests interests of the children. Silencing parents and creating an environment of fear around raising and discussing concerns is not in the best interests of the children.

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:14

Just delete your messages from your end, then you can show you have in good faith done this. You can't do any more, it's not technically possible.

It's incredibly unprofessional (as well as anti- a culture of safeguarding) to make an empty threat of police to a parent. If they thought you'd broken the law (you haven't) the correct course of action would be to report to police, not tell you about it first.

It's weird because your complaint was about the school having inaccurate posters not any individual. It doesn't even make sense.

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:15

But just imagine the chilling effect on safeguarding:

' I think I saw X being inappropriate with a child but I'd better not say anything in case the school reports me to the police for defamation, they have form for threatening that'

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:16

Also, for it to be defamation it has to be untrue. And nothing you've said is untrue.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:22

Thinking of replying along the lines of:

Thank you for your email and phone call today.

In the spirit of cooperation I have tried to remove some whatsapp posts, however they are beyond the time limit of 2 days and 12 hours, imposed by WhatsApp on the "delete for all" option.

I have posted nothing defamatory about the school, only shared some concerns that I had, which at that point had not been addressed, and are directly linked to a question about the Equality Act and protected characteristics, which was asked in the survey sent out earlier that day.

I forwarded the communication from the DepHead, via email, to two concerned parents, at their verbal request.

If you are at all concerned about the content of the two messages I sent, I am happy to copy them over to you.

OP posts:
CharmedUndead · 02/03/2023 20:23

anything considered defamatory could be reported to the police.

Defamatory statements must be false.

So, I'd say, I considered this important information for the school community. I cannot delete the posts. And anything you say about me that is considered defamatory will be reported to the police.

bellac11 · 02/03/2023 20:24

I'd be tempted to tell them to fuck off but I understand OP wants to deal with it sensitively. What a bunch of bastards

bignosebignose · 02/03/2023 20:26

Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:22

Thinking of replying along the lines of:

Thank you for your email and phone call today.

In the spirit of cooperation I have tried to remove some whatsapp posts, however they are beyond the time limit of 2 days and 12 hours, imposed by WhatsApp on the "delete for all" option.

I have posted nothing defamatory about the school, only shared some concerns that I had, which at that point had not been addressed, and are directly linked to a question about the Equality Act and protected characteristics, which was asked in the survey sent out earlier that day.

I forwarded the communication from the DepHead, via email, to two concerned parents, at their verbal request.

If you are at all concerned about the content of the two messages I sent, I am happy to copy them over to you.

That seems very reasonable and considered, in line with everything you've done throughout this process. It must really piss them off.

bignosebignose · 02/03/2023 20:26

CharmedUndead · 02/03/2023 20:23

anything considered defamatory could be reported to the police.

Defamatory statements must be false.

So, I'd say, I considered this important information for the school community. I cannot delete the posts. And anything you say about me that is considered defamatory will be reported to the police.

Also a fair point, that they need to be a bit careful not to defame
you.

Britinme · 02/03/2023 20:27

I think that's an excellent reply. And what @bignosebignose said!

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/03/2023 20:28

CharmedUndead · 02/03/2023 20:23

anything considered defamatory could be reported to the police.

Defamatory statements must be false.

So, I'd say, I considered this important information for the school community. I cannot delete the posts. And anything you say about me that is considered defamatory will be reported to the police.

Surely defamation is a civil matter?

If so, the police would have no interest/authority regarding it.

Who is your MP, Veb? Would they be interested in this matter? - it could lead to serious breaches of safeguarding, as others have pointed out.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:28

Never send an email in anger or fear.

Cold, hard reason pisses them off more

OP posts:
dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:30

I would add that you are extremely concerned that suggesting parents could be reported to the police for defamation will have a chilling effect on the safeguarding culture of the school

Also add that defamation only applies to untrue statements and nothing you have said to anyone is untrue. And you have been motivated by the best interests of the children in the school as you hope any communications from the school would be. (but clearly are not - don't add this bit!)

To be honest their implication that you would do anything defamatory is I think, in itself defamatory although this is beginning to make my head hurt. Any lawyers out there?

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:31

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/03/2023 20:28

Surely defamation is a civil matter?

If so, the police would have no interest/authority regarding it.

Who is your MP, Veb? Would they be interested in this matter? - it could lead to serious breaches of safeguarding, as others have pointed out.

Show quote history

MP is the most captured of a captured thing.

TWAW, no transwoman in a prison is a thread to the other women, don't be such a bigot (paraphrasing from her emails to me).

No hope there.

OP posts:
dimorphism · 02/03/2023 20:36

Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:28

Never send an email in anger or fear.

Cold, hard reason pisses them off more

You are a wise woman.

It's really disturbing though that the school is more interested in shutting up a parent raising a legitimate concern than thinking about what the right thing for the kids is. It's worrying.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/03/2023 20:36

Threat, not thread.

OP posts:
SinnerBoy · 02/03/2023 20:43

The subject has been discussed and addressed correctly and I fail to see how anyone, on either side, has said anything defamatory. If they say that you have, then they will have defamed you.

ghislaine · 02/03/2023 20:51

Defamation is a civil matter. It’s not a crime, why on earth would they go to the police? Empty threat.

Are they going to ban parents from chatting about school activities and policies as well? They probably should, in case someone overheard and doesn’t like what they hear.

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 21:57

You've not said anything defamatory or untrue. Defamation is a civil matter, the police cannot get involved.

I've done some googling and I'm 99% certain Public bodies themselves cannot sue for defamation. My understanding is that individuals within public bodies can sue for defamation, but you have not made any statements about individuals. The school cannot sue for defamation.

Also public bodies, such as schools through governing boards, have to show that they are not misusing public funds. Using school resources to pursue a (nonexistent) defamation claim against a parent would not be appropriate use of school funds and would not be in the best interests of the children in the school.

It's absolutely shockingly outrageous they've threatened you in this way - which itself could very well be defamatory!

ScrollingLeaves · 02/03/2023 22:11

Who is your MP, Veb? Would they be interested in this matter? - it could lead to serious breaches of safeguarding, as others have pointed out.

From what I think I recall Veb saying a few weeks ago, her MP is captured.

I am so sorry this has happened. 💐💐😱What an unpleasant shock for you just when there was so much to celebrate. And there still is, as perhaps this response from the school is in many ways a sign of your success in having pricked their bubble of complacency.

How can schools expect parents not to discuss concerns amongst each other? They have no right to silence anyone about what is being taught to their children.

They are trying to attack you so you’ll back away as they’ve recognised you are forceful and coherent.

dimorphism · 02/03/2023 22:14

I also call bullshit on a number of parents reporting you sharing concerns that the school is misrepresenting the Equality Act. I think this is coming from the Assistant Head, who (IIRC) has already shown themselves to be politically motivated. There may have been ONE person who mentioned it.

From what I can tell the very reason there is now a bar on public bodies suing for defamation is because of the chilling impact that would have of legitimate criticism of public bodies.