Is any one just a little bit gleeful right now?

[Appalonia]

After so many years seemingly howling in the wind, FINALLY the MSM are taking the issues , seriously, it's on front page news, discussed in Westminster, BBC, ITV, C4,it's all over Twitter, even the bloody GUARDIAN is reporting on it, and, by the outrage over Adam Graham, the convicted rapist being put in a women's jail, it looks like we are on the right side of history after all...

Like BeBraveLittlePenguin I feel puzzled and curious about the dynamics of all this. We've been banging on about this stuff for years. Helen Joyce recently said she always thought it would be the issue of rapists in women's prisons that peaked people - and then it didn't. It made her realise, she said, that people don't care about women in prison, or even people in prison in general.

And yet here we are - it is the rapists in prison issue that has peaked people. But why now? Why not Karen White or Tiffany Scott or all the other cases? Scotland has been putting violent men in the women's estate for nine years, after all.

It reminds me a bit of the phone-hacking scandal. The Guardian was reporting on it for a long time, but no one was picking up on it. And then suddenly, there was just one story (I think it was the NOTW hacking Milly Dowler's phone) that made the whole thing explode.

The pandemic has been a big diversion for the last 3 years. But underlined importance of sex. As there were sex differences in outcomes.

I also think no one took any notice of Scotland till Sunak blocked the bill - that's historic. And then the perfect timing of two men obviously playing the system.

Bbc are definitely getting braver too in prime time.

JKR has been shouting loudly for the last 3 years and that has got people listening.

The Reith lectures were brilliant this year.

It's all coming to a head slowly.

Too bloody right!

Sorry your post was deleted but I laughed when I saw it had been. If it had been allowed to stand we would have forever wondered but the deletion simply confirmed what you said, which is good to know.

@RoyalCorgi It is difficult to know. I'm sure there will be political analysts who claim to be able to explain it (in retrospect) but I think the reality is it is very complicated. One very interesting feature in this area is that because tras did such a good job of painting anyone who didn't go along with the mantras as bigots etc effectively there has been much more support for broadly GC views than has been visible. Similar to the 'shy Tory' effect I would say. So now it has suddenly become acceptable to voice these views (even the person driving through the GRR has now had to admit that TWANW in all cases) it turns out there are a lot of people who completely agree but have been too scared to say. One of the many mistakes the tras made was to think that bullying in to silence is the same as agreement. I think the timing of this latest court case right after GRR was pushed through has also been key. And now it is all falling apart the tras have nothing to fall back on because basically the last decade they have been 'winning' due to silencing, bullying, and gaslighting tactics. And they didn't see it coming because they refused to listen. Honestly, it's like an abusive husband who when his wife finally leaves tells everyone who'll listen that it came out of nowhere and he has no idea what happened.

@FOJN that's my thoughts.

Well its a glorious day must get on with things, ahhh there's a beautiful little robin sat on my windowsill.

Drinking a tequila cocktail whilst eating a pizza

I'm not optimistic. I work in a very woke organisation and people there will see this prison issue as entirely separate from their working lives and the pressure to pronoun everything, the misreporting of the pay gap etc. I don't think the dots will be connected.

😂 ha ha for a minute there @Birdsweepsin you actually had me going… I must be gullible.

One of the many mistakes the tras made was to think that bullying in to silence is the same as agreement.

Definitely. A lot of people who were previously too scared to say anything are now speaking out.

And this reminds me (I may even start a separate thread). A few years ago someone on here recommended a book by an American academic. It was about how governments are often blindsided by sudden shifts in popular opinion, and the rise in populist movements. The argument was that a lot of the time people go along with the dominant liberal view because they are too scared to dissent, but that if something happens to make it acceptable to express these views, there'll be a massive shift of people apparently changing their opinion. I meant to read it then, but didn't, and have now forgotten the author and the book title. Please, someone, tell me what it was!

😍

I know the one you mean.

Well its a glorious day must get on with things, ahhh there's a beautiful little robin sat on my windowsill.

Fun fact: unlike humans it's almost impossible to tell the difference between a male and female robin but I bet if you can get close enough to this one you'll hear it saying, "fuckery, fuck, fuck, that was a stupid thing to do". 😄

RoyalCorgi · Today 10:17

governments are often blindsided by sudden shifts in popular opinion, and the rise in populist movements.

We need the Government to actually do something to give legal force to the meaning of the word ‘sex ‘ in the Equality Act.

It got shifted by gender ideology away from the biological reality of being male or female.

To sign the petition to update the Equality Act to make clear the characteristic ‘sex ‘ means biological sex,
⬇️
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/623243

www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

Is it this? My memory dredged up the term “preference falsification.” I seem to remember an interesting podcast on the subject but I haven’t read the book.

Gleeful enough to namechange! Thank you for the inspiration Blessed

MargaritaPie · Today 00:30

Also the 5 transwomen who are in women's prisons are there for non-violent offences.

That's a flat out lie, as you know very well.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11684997/Read-killer-born-man-woman-identifies-BABY.html

"In December, when Katie was sent to Cornton Vale – the same all-female prison from which Bryson has just been removed – protesters gathered outside to demonstrate against the ‘outrageous and completely inappropriate’ transfer."

"Paris Green (born Peter Laing) began a minimum 18 year term at Cornton Vale in 2013. Along with two accomplices, 22-year-old Green, who transitioned in 2011, lured a man to her flat, tied him up and tortured him for several hours, sexually assaulting him and beating him so badly they left a footprint on his neck."

That's it! Thank you so much - I was going nuts trying to remember it. "Preference falsification" - I must try and make that stick in my head.

I'm going to order it now so I don't forget again.

This is why I LOVE Mumsnet.

Birdsweepsin · Today 07:49

Can we all just take a moment to reflect on Pink News' coverage of the prisons issue and Sturgeons comments?

That sounds extremely unlikely to me, do you have a link?

We need to get this petition to 100,000 because it has to be debated in Parliament then.

I signed a while ago and I got an update through, with the government's "overdue response" to the petition. They said changing anything is "unnecessary".

Their response in full:

"The Government's response

Under the Equality Act 2010, providers are already able to restrict the use of spaces/services on the basis of sex and/or gender reassignment where justified. Further clarification is not necessary.

The Equality Act 2010 provides protection against discrimination, harassment and victimisation across a number of grounds, including sex. We are committed to upholding Britain’s long-standing record of protecting the rights of individuals against unlawful discrimination.

The Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) have published guidance on the existing legislation which provides much needed clarity to those offering single-sex spaces. It does not change the legal position or the law.

As the guidance makes clear, it is entirely acceptable for providers of single-sex services to take account of the biological sex of their service users. Where it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim, the Equality Act 2010 is clear that service providers can exclude, modify or limit access for transgender people, even where they have a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC). This includes where a service provider has concerns that the presence of individuals who are biologically male could prevent them from meeting their aims, such as in the example below, included in the guidance:

“A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow trans women to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are likely to be traumatised by the presence of a person who is biologically male.”

It is important that providers of single-sex services are clear that biological sex can be taken into consideration when providing services.

The Government is committed to maintaining the safeguards that allow organisations to provide single-sex spaces. It is important that the principle of being able to operate spaces reserved for women and girls is maintained. Government is committed to tackling harassment and abusive behaviours by all individuals, and ensuring single-sex spaces are safe for those using them.

The response to this petition was provided by the Cabinet Office.

Read the Government's response to this petition online.
Minister for Women and Equalities apologises for late response

The Minister for Women and Equalities, Kemi Badenoch MP, has apologised for the delay in responding to this petition. The minister said:

The delay was caused by exceptional factors including waiting for the conclusion of a directly relevant case being heard by the Court of Appeal in Scotland on this issue. We took the view that it would be helpful to the petitioners if we could respond in full knowledge of the Court’s ruling on this matter."

I feel honoured. Not as much as the cat does though.

100% no debate acceptance.
Isn't that what we are told?

So either these offenders are women or they are not.
They can't be women for some areas of life and not others.

If they are not being sent to female prisons then it's because they are not seen as women for that particular scenario.
Why?
Is it because the whole thing is a giant fiction, but sometimes sex actually MATTERS and has to over-ride people's feelings? This is where we have got to after lying to these people that we accept them fully as women. They believe that they can have unfettered access to all female spaces and services set up for and designed for females - but they cannot.
Because they will always be male.

For those howling TRAs that still believe these people belong in the female estate....would you be happy with your female relative sharing a prison cell with an intact violent male rapist?

If not, why not?
Is it because they are in fact, actually MALE, and that sometimes, sex matters?
Is it because men do not belong confined with women? Is it because you know they are actually male, but your ideology won't let you admit that lest the whole house of shitty cards comes tumbling down?

I think there are two ways to mentally reconcile Sturgeon's "solution" of sending Bryson to a man's prison with her previously stated views. The press is focusing on the explanation that she's admitting that TWANW; TWAM even if only in a few select situations. But the other possibility is that Bryson is not a transwoman.

For Sturgeon at the moment, 1 is a hell of a lot easier to admit than 2, which opens up a huge can of worms on the showpiece GRR (although not directly relevant to this specific case at the moment) by suggesting that pure self-ID is not a "no-brainer", unproblematic good. While the admission that TWANW is progress - especially if the press and public can stay interested long enough to apply this insight to other areas where single-sex spaces and services have been compromised - I'd also like the worms opened, please.

Re the "moment of truth" -- when White (sort of) hit the headlines, the prevailing narrative was that trans people were born in the wrong body, had always been the sex (not just the gender) they "identified as" but had been "assigned" the wrong one, and had been forced to go through the wrong puberty. Karen's stubble was off limits to anyone but evil bigots: just be kind and pretend she looks feminine. Plus feminists wouldn't criticise a 50-something "CIS" woman's facial hair or post-menopausal masc-leaning facial features, so it's bigoted to say about a trans woman.

With Bryson, though ... I don't think the wider Scottish public was fully prepared for a surprise female penis. People aren't generally complete idiots. And it's very clear the female socialisation is missing, too ... I'll let Blair Waldorf explain it:

Thankfully, as I'm not an ornithologist, I've never been close enough to a Robin to have to correctly sex it!

But I did get close to the window and I could just about make out f....y...f...u...doh! Then it pooped on the window sill and flew off.

No I am just angry 😡