Page 7 | Sturgeon getting an absolute grilling on Channel 4 News

dunBle · 2023-01-30T19:36:36+00:00

I should imagine the clip will be doing the rounds on twitter shortly if it's not already, but their Scotland correspondant Ciaran Jenkins did a really good job in a brief interview with her when she was on a tour of a TV studio today. Raised the issue of Katie Dolatowski, and got her quite rattled trying to get her to justify her comments about transphobia and racism. Should be on about 8:15/8:20ish if you want to watch it on C4+1

EmpressaurusOfWitchesBackFromTheDead · 30/01/2023 21:30

All this is great IF it means an end to men (however they identify) in women’s prisons in the whole of the UK. For a start. This isn’t just about what’s happening now in Scotland.

A lot of MNers were first turned on to all this back around 2015, when something very similar was happening in England, and it’s actually been going on since the 1980s.

Shelefttheweb · 30/01/2023 21:31

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

No, why should I? They don’t care about women.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 30/01/2023 21:31

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

Mate, have you seen the way gender supremecists talk about gender critical women? Not to mention turning up in person with threats of violence.

Please pop over to them and ask them not to be so hateful to women who are simply standing up for the existence and political and social recognition of female people.

Because if you really want to see what marginalised and discriminated against looks like, look at the history of women. Look at the stories women are telling right now in the relationships board. Look at the front page of Pornhub and tell me society sees female people as equal and worthy of male respect.

And I'm sorry if challenging the mantra "trans women are women" is hurtful to trans women. I would much rather we could go back to it being a polite fiction, appreciated by trans women but understood by all concerned as a courtesy not a fact.

But this phrase left unchallenged is being leveraged to undefine female people as a legitimate political and social group, to silence us as a legitimate voice with the right to advocate for our own needs.

So until that stops happening, I'm afraid women (the original female version) cannot afford the luxury of being kind to men who would undefine us.

dapsnotplimsolls · 30/01/2023 21:31

LizzieSiddal · 30/01/2023 21:21

I’m a bit worried that she still doesn’t get how serious all this is and how incoherent she sounds.
Why else would she and her advisers think it was ok for her to be interviewed by ITV and Channel 4 news and answer questions about her idiotic policy!!

She and they probably thought they'd #bekind.

Blackandwhitehorse · 30/01/2023 21:31

SomethingLikeThisNow · 30/01/2023 21:29

And yet, they voted against that just a month back.

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This is what I can’t get my head around! Why would they vote against that? Surely even for cynical PR purposes they should have??

ScribblingPixie · 30/01/2023 21:32

“the female prisoners in our society and how they feel… desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against”

There you go @LikeAnOldFriend - I edited your quote so you can understand the situation from the other side of the debate.

Yes, TheClogLady! I came on here to post just the same thing. It's hard to believe another woman could have so little empathy.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 30/01/2023 21:34

A lot of MNers were first turned on to all this back around 2015, when something very similar was happening in England, and it’s actually been going on since the 1980s.

This is one thing that shocks me. I first became aware of this 6 years ago (I can date it accurately as it was a promotion that led to me looking at the issue in detail). Even then I was way behind the times. I really cannot believe how long it has taken for this to reach public consciousness. And we have Nicola Sturgeon to thank for bringing in the sunlight 😁

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2023 21:35

MrsOvertonsWindow · 30/01/2023 19:49

There's nothing she (or any of the TWAW brigade) can say that is coherent or logical. It's an abusive, incoherent, male dominated set of fantasies that have been allowed to gaslight the population, oppress women and groom numerous children into believing their bodies are somehow wrong and need fixing.
Forcing men into spaces where unconsenting women and girls undress and are vulnerable is what they want and they've managed to achieve this using all the underhand tactics laid out in the Denton's report.

FINALLY people are being held to account for what they've done.

Yes.

Nobody's falling for the grift anymore. The time for emotionally manipulative bullshit is over.

WickedSerious · 30/01/2023 21:36

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

I recognise them as men.

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 30/01/2023 21:37

picklemewalnuts · 30/01/2023 21:00

I'd happily nail a few things down. If only they'd let me.

They just wont stay still long enough. Damn

JemimaTiggywinkles · 30/01/2023 21:37

Why would they vote against that? Surely even for cynical PR purposes they should have??

I think they massively underestimated a) how determined women are about getting the whole debate into the public arena, and b) how the general public would feel when all the issues were aired. The about-turn in public opinion has been quick (in political terms). 18 months ago the Scottish public largely agreed with self-ID as a policy.

moksorineouimoksori · 30/01/2023 21:40

Scotland has sold out their women and I fear soon we will too.

Women cannot be imprisoned with men (penis-havers). It is cruel and unusual punishment.

mrshoho · 30/01/2023 21:41

Goldpaw · 30/01/2023 21:16

I genuinely can't decide if she is a true believer who is now being faced with holes, a soft believer (a "be kind") who has now realised she's in the shit, or if she never believed it at all.

I don't like Nicola Sturgeon but I do believe she was a soft believer.

I have a friend the same. She doesn't see the awful stuff that's been happening but the idea of being kind and welcoming to men who have lived lives believing they are women and who finally have the courage to live as women is a very strong one for her. When you mention the likes of Graham then she truly believes they are the extreme exception and that TRA abuse etc. doesn't really happen and is excaggerated.

How can she not see it? because she's a high flier who works 80 hours a week and spends her free time with her family. She's not online, no twitter, no forums, and because it's been so poorly reported on over the years for fear of upsetting transwomen, she just has a limited view of what has been happening.

I believe she's more into it than just that of a soft believer.

PineCone74 · 30/01/2023 21:41

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

I too find the tone of some views around this debate really disturbing, on both sides. The way in which views are being expressed seem to have become so extreme and vicious, not just on MN, but many other places, and not just on this issue, though this one seems the most divisive. I worry about where it will end. I listened carefully to an interview with Nicola Sturgeon on the NewsAgents podcast the other day, and although I did not agree with some of her views I also did not recognise the rabid woman-hater she is being made out to be by some. The way that interview was presented on some (not all) media/social media sites was also devoid of any nuance or accurate reporting. The echo chamber in action. Will we eventually lose the ability to have debates and disagreements, and will just totally destroying ‘the other side’ ( whatever that may be) be all that matters?

knittingaddict · 30/01/2023 21:42

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:50

"Transwomen stumbling across a thread on the Feminism. Sex and Gender board on Mumsnet? Why would they be over here stumbling about?"

I saw this at the very top of the active threads when I clicked in to my mumsnet app, and I'd imagine all others will too.

I do totally understand that the reason you're all so passionate is a desire to protect women's rights, and that's obviously important to me too, but there's the issue of all individuals who experience prejudice and discrimination, including women but also including trans women and men.

I know I'm derailing in joining this conversation, so please feel free not to answer but in seeing some of you deny completely that a trans women is a woman, I wonder if you can tell me if you can accept a woman who has transitioned to a man as a man, or if it's only this way around that it's not acceptable? Do you accept when a person is fully transitioned their chosen gender identity, or never at all?

Never because it denies biological fact and that's too important. It overrides feelings.

Backstreets · 30/01/2023 21:43

What a relief to see all this finally challenged, reported on, and discussed!

And I really dislike the "what about gay rights" argument. Gay rights complement women's rights as it allows lesbian women to live free lives, and gives acceptance to gender non conforming and same sex attracted young girls. Trans rights in the most extreme form puts vulnerable women and girls in danger by demanding they share single sex spaces with male bodied people, or set young girls who don't fit in down a path of sterilisation and medicalisation.

I think a sensible debate about all this could have been had at some point, but with all the underhand tactics of the Denton's document, no debate and no-platforming those days are far behind us.

OMG12 · 30/01/2023 21:43

ResisterRex · 30/01/2023 19:55

Spare a thought for the emotional support dogs at Stonewall HQ. They'll have been working overtime to soothe the tired kiddiewinks

#emotionalsupportdogsrightsnow

I think the stonewall emotional support dogs were last seen in ikea

IcakethereforeIam · 30/01/2023 21:44

Make feminist to her butter fingertips, Nicola Sturgeon squirm some more, follow the link to sign and share the Government petition on clarity in the Equality Act. We may be able to keep some men out of prisons but Stonewall and the like have successfully muddied the water to allow any man who wishes into areas that should be single sex. Let's get to 100k and have a debate

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4722618-petition-to-update-the-equality-act-thread-2

Sorry to derail. Btw there's also a petition on repealing the GRA.

Butchyrestingface · 30/01/2023 21:45

I wonder if you can tell me if you can accept a woman who has transitioned to a man as a man

Nope, because they haven't 'transitioned' to anything. They are still a woman.

Of course, if THEY want to go into male prisons, use male lavatories, compete in male sports, then I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. No-one is at risk of harm from them doing so other than their stupid selves.

MsFogi · 30/01/2023 21:46

I don't know why this has become difficult for Nicola - anyone who says they are a woman is a woman so they should be in women's jails. What has changed - trans women are women! Anyone who disagrees is a transphobe and probably a homophobe and a racist.

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2023 21:47

OMG12 · 30/01/2023 21:43

I think the stonewall emotional support dogs were last seen in ikea

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😬

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 30/01/2023 21:49

PineCone74 · 30/01/2023 21:41

I too find the tone of some views around this debate really disturbing, on both sides. The way in which views are being expressed seem to have become so extreme and vicious, not just on MN, but many other places, and not just on this issue, though this one seems the most divisive. I worry about where it will end. I listened carefully to an interview with Nicola Sturgeon on the NewsAgents podcast the other day, and although I did not agree with some of her views I also did not recognise the rabid woman-hater she is being made out to be by some. The way that interview was presented on some (not all) media/social media sites was also devoid of any nuance or accurate reporting. The echo chamber in action. Will we eventually lose the ability to have debates and disagreements, and will just totally destroying ‘the other side’ ( whatever that may be) be all that matters?

Show quote history

NS actively pushed through the GRR against warnings that handing our gender recognition certificates like sweeties would lead to more rapists in women's prisons. I'm interested in how it's possible to describe this in a way that is fair to Nicola?

nilsmousehammer · 30/01/2023 21:49

Women, hear the call to refocus on men and give them their due deference or I'll sadly shame you for being unkind!

Women, compromise and find the middle ground in case I sadly shame you for being extremist!

Shame away. I will render exactly the same care, compassion, respect and compromise as the TQ+ political lobby shows to females. Exactly. They can start.

And females have compromised for bloody years. It was called the GRA. That was the attempt. And look what it's led to, and how much the piss has been taken by men for men, and how very angry women are.

The game's over. It was not women who blew it. But it's bloody well women who are calling time on it now.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 30/01/2023 21:49

I too find the tone of some views around this debate really disturbing, on both sides.

There are male rapists in prison with vulnerable women and it is the “tone” of some views here which you find disturbing?! No.

Women being held in tiny cells with male rapists is disturbing. Children socially transitioning at school under the guidance of randoms on the internet is disturbing. Redefining the word “woman” without proper public debate is disturbing (in a 1984 sense). Women pointing out that all of these are stupid ideas are not disturbing.

Hoppinggreen · 30/01/2023 21:49

LikeAnOldFriend · 30/01/2023 20:25

Do any of you ever think about how a trans woman would feel stumbling across your threads on here?

I know you all feel strongly about this but I feel genuinely sad at how the understandably emotive issue of trans women in prisons has whipped people up to a point where there's such glee in posts like this, and underneath it all is such a dismissive and negative view of all the trans women in our society and how they feel - which is often I would imagine desperately unseen, marginalised and discriminated against.

Calling a group the "trans women are women brigade" is so unkind to trans women everywhere who deserve to be recognised.

No, no I don’t