Page 13 | 'Breaking' - Transgender rapist won’t be imprisoned in Scotland’s all-women jail, Nicola Sturgeon tells MSPs

CaveMum · 26/01/2023 18:14

MrsOvertonsWindow · 26/01/2023 18:07

Katie Dolatowski, 22, a convicted paedophile who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl is apparently in a women's prison. That's after seriously assaulting a man in a men's prison.

So transwomen are women except.......... ?? some are apparently not women becuase......?? And we're all transphobic and bigots for wanting to know.

Yes, “Katie” is in Corton Vale. Ironically (sarcastic face) moved there from the make estate after assaulting a male inmate
news.stv.tv/west-central/scottish-prison-service-criticised-for-moving-trans-woman-katie-dolatowski-to-cornton-vale-stirling

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2023 18:15

As long as the men are protected @CaveMum - that's the important thing.

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2023 18:16

zaramysaviour · 26/01/2023 12:53

Excellent news.

And Sturgeon has really shot herself in the foot here (again). Because if she really thinks 'trans women are women', why is she not allowing this 'woman' to go to a female prison?

So therefore she knows this person is not a woman.

So therefore she is being transphobic...

Trans-convicts (or those who claim they are trans) are decided on a case-by-case basis by the prison system as has been the case for many years. Every case is different and every individual will be risk assessed etc. Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

"So therefore she is being transphobic"

IMO Nicola Sturgeon strikes a very good balance of supporting trans-rights and also considering potential risks and safeguarding matters. She is definitely not transphobic.

SerafinasGoose · 26/01/2023 18:17

ItsDinah · 26/01/2023 13:16

There is only one all- female prison in Scotland but at least 3 that take females and males. So, saying someone won't be housed in the all-female prison does not mean that person will not be housed with female prisoners.

Agreed. As far as I can see this is disingenuousness masquerading as an about-face.

The language Sturgeon used in her speech was evasive. She mentions it's not appropriate to state publicly where this prisoner has gone, but says nothing on the point of whether he (rapists do not get the privilege of incorrect pronouns from me) will be incarcerated alongside women elsewhere. She also neglected to mention that Cornton Vale is shortly to close, so the question will then be moot in any event.

You'd think if gender ideologists had the courage of the convictions they so passionately and often aggressively spout, they'd stand by them instead of lying, evading and rugsweeping.

Boiledbeetle · 26/01/2023 18:20

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2023 18:16

Trans-convicts (or those who claim they are trans) are decided on a case-by-case basis by the prison system as has been the case for many years. Every case is different and every individual will be risk assessed etc. Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

"So therefore she is being transphobic"

IMO Nicola Sturgeon strikes a very good balance of supporting trans-rights and also considering potential risks and safeguarding matters. She is definitely not transphobic.

Show quote history

Transwomen are men and should 100% be in the male prison estate

Transmen are women and should 100% be in the female prison estatee

NO DEBATE

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 26/01/2023 18:22

Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

In the care unit where vulnerable women prisoners are housed…

ReneBumsWombats · 26/01/2023 18:22

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2023 18:16

Trans-convicts (or those who claim they are trans) are decided on a case-by-case basis by the prison system as has been the case for many years. Every case is different and every individual will be risk assessed etc. Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

"So therefore she is being transphobic"

IMO Nicola Sturgeon strikes a very good balance of supporting trans-rights and also considering potential risks and safeguarding matters. She is definitely not transphobic.

Show quote history

Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

Why segregate women from women?

mumda · 26/01/2023 18:29

The whole point of her nonsensical awful legislative nonsense was that Actually a rapist can go to a women's prison.

This case might be just the example needed.

bedisbest · 26/01/2023 18:30

Aardvvark · 26/01/2023 16:54

I am shocked by the bile and transphobia on this forum. I am a feminist and support both trans rights and women's rights. I assume that others- including Nicola Sturgeon - also feel this way, unless they reveal clear evidence of taking one side only. Where there is a conflict- as there is, I think, in this case because of the history of sexual abuse- what is wrong with deciding on the best/least worst option case by case? This is not a simple situation.

What other women do you think should be moved out of women’s prisons and why?

What is it about this rapist woman ( in your view they are a woman I presume) that means ‘she’ must be moved from a woman’s prison?

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2023 18:31

ReneBumsWombats · 26/01/2023 18:22

Even if a transwoman is sent to a woman's prison they may be segregated and kept separate from the cis-women inmates.

Why segregate women from women?

Show quote history

No-one is suggesting that.

It's MEN we need to keep away from women. TW are men, no matter what they "feel" like in their heads.

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/01/2023 18:35

Every case is different and every individual will be risk assessed etc

We're supposed to trust their risk assessments? They concluded that it was fine for a man just found guilty of raping 2 women to go to a women's prison. And now they've decided that actually, he shouldn't be in a women's prison after all only because of the backlash and media attention.

If their ''risk assessment'' says being a double rapist isn't serious enough to exclude a man from women's prison, what is?!

SweetcornFritter · 26/01/2023 18:38

Aardvvark · 26/01/2023 16:54

I am shocked by the bile and transphobia on this forum. I am a feminist and support both trans rights and women's rights. I assume that others- including Nicola Sturgeon - also feel this way, unless they reveal clear evidence of taking one side only. Where there is a conflict- as there is, I think, in this case because of the history of sexual abuse- what is wrong with deciding on the best/least worst option case by case? This is not a simple situation.

Is the rapist in question a woman as far as you’re concerned?

Penguinduvetcover · 26/01/2023 18:38

Parsley1234 · Today 17:42
@Ludo19 what are her super injunctions for ?

apparently reporters are not allowed to report

her sexual preference, or where she lives with her female partner
that allegedly her marriage is a sham and her husband is on friendly terms with Mr Green
Apparently when she claimed she had covid, it co incided with Judy Murray taking a punch at her and she had a keeker 😵‍💫

soddingspiderseason · 26/01/2023 18:39

Prisons should be single sex. Elizabeth Fry established this basic human right for women in 1823. If you are born male, you will always be male. And the same for being born female. Nobody has ever or will ever be able to change sex. So now that people can see and are horrified by the ridiculous outcome of rejecting basic science, can we please stop pretending? And go back to reality? To protect women? As Elizabeth Fry did 200 years ago?

ReneBumsWombats · 26/01/2023 18:42

Emotionalsupportviper · 26/01/2023 18:31

No-one is suggesting that.

It's MEN we need to keep away from women. TW are men, no matter what they "feel" like in their heads.

Show quote history

I'm pointing out the lunacy of the statement.

LakeTiticaca · 26/01/2023 18:43

Aye stick him in Barlinnie and see how quick he transitions back to a bloke

bedisbest · 26/01/2023 18:44

ReneBumsWombats · 26/01/2023 18:42

I'm pointing out the lunacy of the statement.

Show quote history

I got that! I thought you made your point well.

Ludo19 · 26/01/2023 18:44

Penguinduvetcover · 26/01/2023 18:38

Parsley1234 · Today 17:42
@Ludo19 what are her super injunctions for ?

apparently reporters are not allowed to report

her sexual preference, or where she lives with her female partner
that allegedly her marriage is a sham and her husband is on friendly terms with Mr Green
Apparently when she claimed she had covid, it co incided with Judy Murray taking a punch at her and she had a keeker 😵‍💫

This and her financial discrepancies.

RedToothBrush · 26/01/2023 18:45

There is an interesting twist to my mind here.

If 'the rapist' is a woman and they aren't allowed in a woman's prison and must be in a man's prison then legitimately they can take the Scottish Government to court.

If the Scottish Government are taken to court, then the only defence they have is the clause in the Equality Act which allows exemptions or to use a proportionality argument to balance human rights.

These are the very clauses that actual women want used to assert single sex rights.

Thus legally, if the rapist does pursue things, the Scottish Government just fucked themselves.

Oops.

That doesn't set themselves up well for the head on clash with Westminster over the issue.

It's amazing what politicians will uturn on when it suddenly becomes apparent that it's not in their own political interests... Happy to throw others under the bus until it hurts them though.

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/01/2023 18:46

Second story on ITV News too, full shot of him in his leggings with his dick bulge included.

Waitwhat23 · 26/01/2023 18:47

Lolapusht · 26/01/2023 17:36

There’s also the additional problem that SPS’s trans policy is actually more than what the law requires (JC has posted on Twitter about this today). They seemingly approach things on the basis that self-I’d is already in force and that everyone identifying as trans should be treated as their chosen gender. The policy was seemingly drafted by Scottish Trans Alliance and they have stated they did this to effectively pave the way for changing other public institutions ie first the prisons, then the rest.

If this TiM doesn’t fall under the TWAW umbrella then the SG need to be issuing guidance about when TWAW aren’t in fact women and how we can all be sure we’re treating people correctly.

Excellent post and yes, what this has shown up is that the SPS have been doing essentially whatever the fuck they wanted, advised solely by the Scottish Trans Alliance. To quote James Morton of that organisation -

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

The Chief Executive of the Scottish Prison Service reports to the Cabinet Secretary for Justice, currently Keith Brown MSP, who is responsible for the Scottish Prison Service within the Scottish Government.

The new transgender prisoner policy for SPS, which was meant to be published last summer and for which they stated that they would consult with women's groups and female prisoners for the first time, has still not been made public.

I wrote to my MSP's yesterday ask how Keith Brown has allowed the SPS to basically do whatever they want and when this updated policy is likely to be published. I haven't heard back yet. I'm going to be charitable and assume this is because they have had a lot of correspondence.

FactsAreNotMean · 26/01/2023 18:49

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/01/2023 18:46

Second story on ITV News too, full shot of him in his leggings with his dick bulge included.

That photo is the gift which keeps on giving; the photographer definitely understood the assignment!

Has it actually been confirmed what impact GRC has on prison choice - with a GRC would he be in the women's wing regardless?

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2023 18:49

yourhairiswinterfire · 26/01/2023 18:35

Every case is different and every individual will be risk assessed etc

We're supposed to trust their risk assessments? They concluded that it was fine for a man just found guilty of raping 2 women to go to a women's prison. And now they've decided that actually, he shouldn't be in a women's prison after all only because of the backlash and media attention.

If their ''risk assessment'' says being a double rapist isn't serious enough to exclude a man from women's prison, what is?!

"They concluded that it was fine for a man just found guilty of raping 2 women to go to a women's prison"

Did they? The prisoner was remanded at Cornton Vale but I have a feeling the final decision hadn't actually been made until today, and yesterday the tabloids were doing their job of being tabloids by creating outrage on not-yet-confirmed info.

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2023 18:50

"Has it actually been confirmed what impact GRC has on prison choice - with a GRC would he be in the women's wing regardless?"

No difference is the answer to that.

SerafinasGoose · 26/01/2023 18:50

IcakethereforeIam · 26/01/2023 14:09

Please sign and share the petition, we're over 3/4 of the way to getting a débat in Parliament over this. Follow the link to the government petition website

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex

Interesting. Just today the following response was posted onto that petition (which I have signed previously) ...

Government responded
This response was given on 26 January 2023

Under the Equality Act 2010, providers are already able to restrict the use of spaces/services on the basis of sex and/or gender reassignment where justified. Further clarification is not necessary.

So do they mean sex or do they mean gender? If both - and they are two different things - what happens when the dignity, needs, safeguarding and protection of people of the female biological sex conflict with the very different wants of people claiming a feminine gender identity? What, precisely, do they mean by gender 'reassignment?' What is considered sufficient justification for the restriction of spaces and services, and on what basis would that be given?

Yep, all clear as mud.