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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

OJ has a special message for us…

567 replies

Cuppasoupmonster · 19/01/2023 13:14

twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1616008459958231040/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1616008459958231040&currentTweetUser=OwenJones84

Gave me a laugh over my coffee anyway 😆 does he remind anyone else of arguments with their little brother? ‘You’re going to lose. Why are you hitting yourself’ etc 😂

Interesting he has never ever once engaged with any of the thousands of points as to why gender ideology is indefensible at best and harmful at worst, it’s always just ‘You’re going to lose… tiny minority… section 28’

OP posts:
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PermanentTemporary · 20/01/2023 05:54

He is interested in having daughters, he's said at times that he might want kids. I'm sure he has female relatives!

He doesn't see campaigning for women's rights when it involves us defining what that means as legitimate. It's only legitimate if he agrees with the definition and the parameters. Then he allows it.

Cuppasoupmonster · 20/01/2023 05:58

@Tabitha1960 its an interesting one. Whereas it’s overwhelmingly straight men that are a direct threat to women (rape, violence etc), there is certainly a small group of gay men with views like Owen’s whose lack of vested interest in women means they see us as mere collateral damage or an inconvenience.

I think it’s more that he doesn’t have children. He doesn’t realise the extent to which they need protecting and how vulnerable they are. He seems them as small adults, and himself as their ‘liberator’, which is just laughable and concerning in equal measure.

OP posts:
Cuppasoupmonster · 20/01/2023 06:03

PermanentTemporary · 20/01/2023 05:54

He is interested in having daughters, he's said at times that he might want kids. I'm sure he has female relatives!

He doesn't see campaigning for women's rights when it involves us defining what that means as legitimate. It's only legitimate if he agrees with the definition and the parameters. Then he allows it.

Men in my experience don’t develop an understanding of feminism through their mums and sisters because they don’t think of them as ‘sexual’ beings who will be viewed as such by other men. If that makes sense. By that I don’t mean that ‘older women like Owen’s mum aren’t capable of being harassed’, just that he won’t readily make that connection in his head like he would seeing a younger female friend being perved on during a night out.

It tends to be when they have wives/girlfriends that experience this behaviour, or small daughters who they love and feel overwhelmingly protective of on account of their age and the fact it’s their child.

Bit depressing really, only mattering to men when we’re their ‘possessions’.

But then I’ve always felt Owen doesn’t really care about women or non-whites; we’re just here to make up the numbers in his grudge match against the right wing and other people who stand in the way of his ‘enlightened’ LGBTQIAXYZ views.

OP posts:
MrsJamin · 20/01/2023 06:42

I don't know any "anti-trans activists" on here so it's not directed at us. We are women concerned at the eroding of our hard won rights.
I did laugh at the frothing and obsession of OJ, though. He's looking desperate now.

mrshoho · 20/01/2023 08:04

I think it’s more that he doesn’t have children. He doesn’t realise the extent to which they need protecting and how vulnerable they are. He seems them as small adults, and himself as their ‘liberator’, which is just laughable and concerning in equal measure.

I'm sure he said he has never called his mum 'mum' as she didn't like it. He didn't say whether he used her first name instead or another word. He's got a twin Sister.

nilsmousehammer · 20/01/2023 08:11

It's quite simple. Is wanting equality of access and consideration for women 'anti trans'?

If so then trans (and that's a very lazy phrasing, because it's a political movement, not something every TQ+ person agrees with or supports, much as the political movement likes to give that impression) is anti women.

Are women supposed to just be naice about that? Sex based oppression being the biological lot of women? In which case why all the bull about changing sex? You can't operate on sex based thinking while at the same time pretend that everything has to be restructured (against one sex in favour of the other) because sex isn't a thing any more.

Women here: this does not work for women in general and some vulnerable groups in particular, answers have to be found that work equally for everyone's needs and inclusion.

TQ+ political lobby: this is hate and bigotry, unless women are subordinated and nice about it this isn't over.

You're going to have to pick for yourself which message you think is appropriate, doable, and likely to end better for society. As opposed to just get steadily worse.

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 08:22

MrsJamin · 20/01/2023 06:42

I don't know any "anti-trans activists" on here so it's not directed at us. We are women concerned at the eroding of our hard won rights.
I did laugh at the frothing and obsession of OJ, though. He's looking desperate now.

Owen is using 'anti-trans activists' as a slur for women.

nauticant · 20/01/2023 08:23

Isn't it for non-subservient women?

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 08:32

Yes, quite right. Women who won't do as they're told. Women who name what they see.

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 08:33

𝔑𝔞𝔪𝔢: 𝔟𝔢𝔞𝔰𝔱𝔩𝔶𝔰𝔩𝔲𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯
ℭ𝔯𝔦𝔪𝔢: 𝔖𝔥𝔢 𝔥𝔞𝔱𝔥 𝔰𝔭𝔬𝔨𝔢𝔫 𝔴𝔥𝔢𝔫 𝔪𝔢𝔫 𝔱𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔥𝔢𝔯 𝔱𝔬 𝔟𝔢 𝔰𝔦𝔩𝔢𝔫𝔱
𝔓𝔲𝔫𝔦𝔰𝔥𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱: 𝔰𝔠𝔬𝔩𝔡𝔰 𝔟𝔯𝔦𝔡𝔩𝔢; 𝔟𝔲𝔯𝔫𝔢𝔡 𝔟𝔶 𝔣𝔦𝔯𝔢

EndlessTea · 20/01/2023 08:34

SidewaysOtter · 19/01/2023 22:55

He started out on a promising career with 'Chavs' and now he's just another idiot Matthew Hopkins on YouTube.

He's clearly quite desperate now he realises he’s nailed his colours to the wrong mast or - in the words of Sir Humphrey - nailed his trousers (“…so he can’t climb down”). It’s all getting a bit humiliating now so the only things he’s got left are bile and froth.

My favourite bit was the threat that women will lose all our rights - I mean, if that’s not a desperate and spiteful need to punish women for the heinous crime of being women, I don’t know what is.

Poor little man, he needs a nap and a biccy.

he realises he’s nailed his colours to the wrong mast or - in the words of Sir Humphrey - nailed his trousers (“…so he can’t climb down”). It’s all getting a bit humiliating now so the only things he’s got left are bile and froth.

This is hilarious 😆
Because it is so true! 🤣😂😆
I can see it. Perfect.

SinnerBoy · 20/01/2023 08:39

His whole premise, in that little video rant was false. Nobody is wishing trans people away. Why is it that none of the trans extremist zealots ever have an honest point and rely on calling people bigots?

Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 08:42

The use of ‘anti-trans’ over recent months has become very prevalent. It is such a significant phrase. On one hand it carries authority, even though it application is false. On the other hand it shows the self-centredness of that movement.

Which is fine, except that it ignores that there is in fact, a conflict with another groups rights. While ‘pro-women’ actually conveys the message about prioritising women and girls but it doesn’t frame it as one group ‘hating’ another. As ‘anti’ does.

The term is as polarising as it is hyperbolic. It is as emotive as you can get. It shows that no compromise is acceptable or tolerated. It reflects the intolerance that is driving trans rights activists.

It nicely encapsulates the trans activist movement for what it is. I don’t think they thought it through though.

It will certainly convince some people, but only those who are only superficially aware. As they get more aware, they will see the term for what it is.

It is a term that will certainly achieve great heights, I believe.

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 08:44

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 08:33

𝔑𝔞𝔪𝔢: 𝔟𝔢𝔞𝔰𝔱𝔩𝔶𝔰𝔩𝔲𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯
ℭ𝔯𝔦𝔪𝔢: 𝔖𝔥𝔢 𝔥𝔞𝔱𝔥 𝔰𝔭𝔬𝔨𝔢𝔫 𝔴𝔥𝔢𝔫 𝔪𝔢𝔫 𝔱𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔥𝔢𝔯 𝔱𝔬 𝔟𝔢 𝔰𝔦𝔩𝔢𝔫𝔱
𝔓𝔲𝔫𝔦𝔰𝔥𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱: 𝔰𝔠𝔬𝔩𝔡𝔰 𝔟𝔯𝔦𝔡𝔩𝔢; 𝔟𝔲𝔯𝔫𝔢𝔡 𝔟𝔶 𝔣𝔦𝔯𝔢

Ah, thank you Arabella!!! Bet LOJ would love to bring back the scold's bridle!

Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 08:47

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 08:33

𝔑𝔞𝔪𝔢: 𝔟𝔢𝔞𝔰𝔱𝔩𝔶𝔰𝔩𝔲𝔪𝔟𝔢𝔯
ℭ𝔯𝔦𝔪𝔢: 𝔖𝔥𝔢 𝔥𝔞𝔱𝔥 𝔰𝔭𝔬𝔨𝔢𝔫 𝔴𝔥𝔢𝔫 𝔪𝔢𝔫 𝔱𝔬𝔩𝔡 𝔥𝔢𝔯 𝔱𝔬 𝔟𝔢 𝔰𝔦𝔩𝔢𝔫𝔱
𝔓𝔲𝔫𝔦𝔰𝔥𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱: 𝔰𝔠𝔬𝔩𝔡𝔰 𝔟𝔯𝔦𝔡𝔩𝔢; 𝔟𝔲𝔯𝔫𝔢𝔡 𝔟𝔶 𝔣𝔦𝔯𝔢

What!!!! Yea old English font!!!!

my MN decorative font shopping list is getting longer!!

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 08:49

nauticant · 19/01/2023 23:21

With impeccable timing, on the second episode of Unsafe Space on Radio 4, currently being broadcast, Andrew Doyle interviewed Owen Jones and the interview illustrates many of the ciritcisms of this thread:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001h4dk

The segment starts from about 9 minutes in. Well worth a listen.

Thanks for this. I'm listening now. Andrew Doyle is brilliant. LOJ immediately falls apart. Very annoying background music, though.

RoyalCorgi · 20/01/2023 08:54

What strikes me with OJ, as with Russell-Moyle, is that he really believes this stuff. All the things he says about us going down in the history books are things I think about the trans activists. The transing of children will one day be seen as a huge medical scandal, and the people who let it happen will be judged by history (assuming of course that future people have a better sense of perspective than the people currently living through this period).

Almost all of the people on our side, though, have to be calm and rational because we're women, and if we spoke like this about our opponents, we'd be described as "hysterical" and over-emotional. So people like Kathleen Stock, Helen Joyce and Selina Todd always speak very fluently but logically because they cannot risk appearing emotional even though they must feel really angry.

It is fascinating to me how someone like OJ, supposedly intelligent, supposedly progressive, cannot grasp the other side of the argument at all. Cannot see that women who have a lifetime of Labour and trade union activism, stuffing envelopes, knocking on doors, organising jumble sales, haven't suddenly become bigots - that they have genuine concerns that they are articulating. I suspect, as we have said so often here, that he simply doesn't see women as people, with their own autonomous thoughts, feelings and experiences, at all. He just sees them as people in the background while men get on with the important stuff.

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 08:56

He's so aggressive. He doesn't listen to anyone. All his 'arguments' are based on whether they allow him to come to the same conclusion. He argues from emotions, never from facts. This stuff must be ruining his life.

DialSquare · 20/01/2023 08:57

Helleofabore · 20/01/2023 08:42

The use of ‘anti-trans’ over recent months has become very prevalent. It is such a significant phrase. On one hand it carries authority, even though it application is false. On the other hand it shows the self-centredness of that movement.

Which is fine, except that it ignores that there is in fact, a conflict with another groups rights. While ‘pro-women’ actually conveys the message about prioritising women and girls but it doesn’t frame it as one group ‘hating’ another. As ‘anti’ does.

The term is as polarising as it is hyperbolic. It is as emotive as you can get. It shows that no compromise is acceptable or tolerated. It reflects the intolerance that is driving trans rights activists.

It nicely encapsulates the trans activist movement for what it is. I don’t think they thought it through though.

It will certainly convince some people, but only those who are only superficially aware. As they get more aware, they will see the term for what it is.

It is a term that will certainly achieve great heights, I believe.

Exactly Helle. Anyone using the term anti trans just confirms to me that they know we are not really being unreasonable in wanting to retain female single sex spaces and that most people agree with us. They need to add the "anti" to make us look unreasonable. If we are anti anything it's anti males in female sex spaces. All males no matter how they present. Which is not unreasonable in the slightest. Transmen are welcome to use female single sex spaces for obvious reasons so how can we be anti trans?

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 09:01

KJK's comeback :)

https://www.youtube.com/live/yEuwilt4F-0?feature=share

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 09:03

See if this link works...
https://www.youtube.com/live/yEuwilt4F-0?feature=share

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 09:03

Ah ffs. Go on youtube and look for "what does women winning look like"

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 09:05

"You say we're going to lose. We're going to win and I will dance upon the victory until you're vomiting with shame and embarrassment."

ArabellaScott · 20/01/2023 09:06

𝔑𝔞𝔪𝔢: 𝔥𝔢𝔩𝔩𝔢𝔬𝔣𝔞𝔟𝔬𝔯𝔢
ℭ𝔯𝔦𝔪𝔢: 𝔖𝔥𝔢 𝔥𝔞𝔱𝔥 𝔮𝔲𝔢𝔰𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫𝔢𝔡 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔯𝔦𝔤𝔥𝔱𝔢𝔬𝔲𝔰𝔫𝔢𝔰𝔰 𝔬𝔣 𝔞 𝔪𝔞𝔩𝔢 𝔪𝔞𝔫
𝔓𝔲𝔫𝔦𝔰𝔥𝔪𝔢𝔫𝔱: 𝔱𝔥𝔢 𝔭𝔯𝔢𝔰𝔰

ResisterRex · 20/01/2023 09:09

beastlyslumber · 20/01/2023 09:03

Ah ffs. Go on youtube and look for "what does women winning look like"

"If that sounds like I'm trying to push you into a debate, I actually am"

😆