Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

[Moomoola]

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

Hello.
I have read all the updates.
My DD is in a relationship with a natal man. We have never met him but we don't like what we hear. I don't push her about his LGBT status but I had warned her regarding testosterone, safe sex and fidelity.
My understanding is that testosterone effects human eggs meaning pregnancy is highly unlikely. I told my DD that few ivf pregnancies are successful and any egg storage has to be paid for if they agree to do it. She soon changed her mind.
I have always asked my DD why she wants to be more male, she can't really give me an answer. She would never pass as male, too small, tiny hands and very gentle. My DC isn't autistic but as you know this is a huge factor in ftm. It is belonging. In answer to your question regarding the year off I gave her my full attention. I gave up drinking (it was my self harm to deal with her issues). I let her just be. She was out of education. She had to tidy for me and walk the dog. Nothing more. I later made sure I worked from home. She finished with the boyfriend at one point however they are back on now but it is a long distance thing. I put no pressure on her and just talked and tried to understand the issues- toilets, prejudice etc. Gender should not matter and if your DD is attracted to girls that's her business and there is something to be said for supporting her if she is gay. I think lesbianism does not get the support that gay men do. They are all fabulous (?). My best friend is gay so we had that conversation early on.
My husband (her father) has never called our DD by her male name. He doesn't engage with it at all. He is not white and thinks if you want to add that to problems you may encounter you carry on mate. He thinks less said the better.
My best advice is keep the conversation going and as she is now 18 she is an adult. If you send her the testosterone NHS warning do not send the huge text. Say dear....., I saw this and I wanted you to be aware. I know you would tell me to bog off but you are my DC and I love you. That's it. Sign it mum. Looking forward to seeing you soon. Ask anything if I can be of help.

@Moomoola . I think you are mourning 2 people, and what do we know about bereavement? That we need to be kind to ourselves and possibly, if you are a mother who’s always put everyone else first, remind other people to be kind to you too.
You need to be a broken record to your Dh. “ please do not bully me, “and repeat. He’s not listening to you, so it’s pointless to keep going round in the same circles.
It is your decision if you return to work or not, no one else’s, if finance is not the deciding factor. But if you decide not to, maybe it should be to work on your own mental health. And you need to make that clear to everyone.

The suggested text is really not going to help, I think it might actually make her more likely to take testosterone. Maybe you should text everyone in your family and say that please can every one respect your need for time to mourn your dear mother, and consider what will make you happy as your nest empties. And I don’t mean that sarcastically at all., maybe you should thank your daughter for helping you see that it’s ok to put yourself first.
The 4 most helpful and supportive things in my life are my husband, my pets. My garden and swimming. . I love my numerous children, and my friends. But those 4 things keep me sane and happy. @Moomoola what are your foundations, what keeps you sane.? Figure it out and do more with that.
Remember what we said? Drop the rope.

Moo, I too lost my mother and it's really tough the first years. Could you reach out to her and tell her you need to support right now because you miss your mum? Your DD sounds empathetic and kind so maybe she'd respond. If anything, it will remind her of her own grief and now that can be shared with loving family members.

While I disagree with what your DH said about your job-essentially he's blaming you for DD's actions, I do think that you need to say something about the dangers of testosterone. Some effects are irreversible and nipping that in the bud is important.

We are all here thinking of Mum today and going to the garden centre to buy something beautiful to plant in her memory, and then out for tea there. Of course, join us if you want.”….. (or something else in memory of your Mum)

I think this is good

Honestly OP, your husband sounds controlling, abusive, and like he has you on eggshells and stressed out trying to appease him.

Why would you want your child to return to that environment? The advice on other Mumsnet threads would be for you to leave him, not encouraging your child to return to that environment.

Lots to think about.
I don't want this to be me moaning about dh. Tho it's tempting! As he's just complained that I washed the wrong shirt for his meeting tomorrow in front of son. I don't know how to react when he does that .
Thank you all so much for your help. It's been quite a day. Earlier I finally joined a gender dysphoria network group zoom. It's horrendous what parents are going through with this stuff, as you all unfortunately know.
Thank you for keeping me sane xxxx

Why does your husband's ideas of action always involve you dong stuff? He wants action...off he hoes then, be action man and see how helpful and effective that is.
He has his head in the sand about your daughter now being an adult and being able to do what she wants.
I think it's fine to send a reply to your daughter asking her to remember she is the only person having to distance herself from her parents and isolate herself in the relationship and that that doesn't sound very healthy

I’ve been following your thread and I’m so sorry your dd is still distant.

I think saying something like this is a very good idea for both you and your dd.

I can see you’re desperately trying to connect to your dd but not being heard. And it sounds as though your dd doesn’t feel heard by you either. You cannot control what your dd does. You cannot control the other family either and it doesn’t help to be upset with how they are with her and the tactics they’re using.

You are understandably upset with them. But getting upset and feeling the upset and anger at the family is pushing negativity towards your daughter. Perhaps you don’t even have to say anything for your to feel this as she is so hyper alert to any perceived sleight from you.

Can you maybe turn this around from fighting against to fighting for? Right now, the thing you most want is some kind of connection and relationship with your dd. Maybe that means bringing things back to basics and thinking about what is missing to make the connection.

Your dd definitely doesn’t want criticism or even any comment on her choices. The only thing that leaves under your control is how much unconditional love, care and support you give to her.

Idk if this sort of approach could work: ‘I am missing grandma loads and it got me thinking about how I could be more like grandma and be the mum you need me to be.”

The more you accept your dd, the more likely she is to open up to you. That doesn’t mean total capitulation. Even if your dd is taking T right now, you still have time but if you spend that time fighting her, it sounds as if she will perhaps be more, not less likely to double down.

@Moomoola My first reaction reading your update was anger, actually. I can't contextualise your DD in her whole life in the way you can, but right now she's coming across as spectacularly self-centered and even cruel. I know children take their parents for granted, but you are not an inanimate object without feelings. Is there any part of her that is aware of what she's doing to you? Or is she so wrapped up in anger / gaslighting that she thinks you deserve it? What exactly is she punishing you for, or does she think she's punishing you for? It's a fucking nightmare.

I think my reply would be along these lines: "I love you, I'm here for you, I will never ever abandon you. But you are causing me incredible pain, and your father is driving me nuts. For my own sanity, I need a break. So I think it would be best for both of us if you to only contact me when you're fully ready to talk properly." I would be tempted to add: "I'm thinking of my own mother today, and missing her dreadfully. I can't help thinking about the relationship between us without fear. But I am walking on eggshells all the time, I feel constantly judged, and the relentless rejection is too hurtful. I'm here when you need me. I will always be here. Save this message so you remember this when the going gets tough."

I know what you mean @wednesdaynamesep

It seems @Moomoola can never predict whether a text message will elicit a friendly response or a stab in the back. The texts about needing space and please respect this are so loaded with passive aggression (do as I say OR ELSE) and I agree they are cruel.

Also agree that @Moomoola could fight fire with fire, as it were, and drop the hopeful texts in favour of “I’m here when you need me”. At least then the melodramatic hints that contact is causing her terrible mental distress you wouldn’t want to upset me too much, would you? might stop.

But I do understand it’s easier said than done.

I agree with this. I think OP needs to work on her boundaries both with her husband and daughter. You can clearly say you are there for her without constantly, damagingly running into rejection over and over again.

I don’t think it’s helpful to ‘tactically’ say things like you’re working to be a better mother/do more, as previously suggested; the tactical nature of it will be obvious and it will likely just feed her behaviour.

Just to add, although your daughter is a victim of an ideology/cult she is also behaving like an abuser. Abuse can be relatively subtle or at least hard to tag- it can include:

Oscillating between love and hate
Passive aggression
Rewriting events
Unpredictability
Hostility
Triangulation
Reversing blame
Ignoring your feelings

OP do you think exposing yourself to this so much is doing you any good? Do you see any repeating patterns? How do you feel physically? This can be a good clue.

I still, barely, maintain a tumblr account, and while I’ve tried to curate my experience as well as I can it’s impossible for some gender woo not to seep in, and the view from the other side is appalling. Denigrating parents and families, calling any acts of attempting to broker peace psychological abuse.

I wish these children would have a read of these boards and understand that most likely your mum is not a horrible abusive bigot who doesn’t understand you, she’s a woman who loves you fiercely and cannot abide to watch you hurt yourself.

Wednesday's response is spot on. I might not add the 'your dad is driving me crazy' part as that's not your daughter's responsibility - both your DH and DD are responsible for their own relationship. However, that response makes you sound loving but strong - a great female role model! And your daughter, despite her seeming rejection of womanhood, will always identify with you and if you give her strength, she can put that in a pocket in her brain to pull out when needed (hopefully against controlling x!).

Thank you , this is so useful. Can I get back to you - I saw family therapist on my own today and DH not happy with my input/ take out. Feeling more than a bit overwhelmed.
again, thank you. It is SO wonderful to feel that you are there. And you are saying what therapist said - let the rope go slack. DH says, yes fine, but she’s told us she’ll take testosterone. they are saying DD won’t take testosterone. DH says, Have they put that in writing? They don’t care because they are stonewalled ( they have LGBTQIA’s silver charter) I say, I don’t know who to listen to..they say the same as everyone I’ve talked to.
it ended on less than complimentary terms.

You have been seen on your own because you are an individual allowed to form your own view. If he doesn’t like it , tough. He can deal with this however he chooses, but he has no right to dictate your response. Just tell him. He’s being an arse ( again).
Honestly moomoola, go and have a little holiday with your brother. Take some time.

DH says, yes fine, but she’s told us she’ll take testosterone. they are saying DD won’t take testosterone.

I think... DH is both right and wrong, and the therapist is both right and wrong. DH is right that DD might take testosterone because what's to stop her? Why does the therapist (I assume "they" is the therapist) think she wont?

And the therapist is right that the best thing to do is keep the rope slack because that will be the least damaging to your relationship with DD and also do least damage to you and the rest of the family. At this stage I don't see how anything you or DH say or do will make any difference to whether she takes testosterone or not. What does DH think you can do about it?

I agree with pp that another holiday with your brother sounds like a good idea!

I am glad you had some more therapy OP. My therapist was too positive about ftm for my liking (I had employed her to help overcome my alcohol dependancy not go off on a fadionable tangent).
However the DC and I had a good conversation about feminism yesterday and I said to her you are a massive force these days, a true feminist. And she said thank you!
I actually believe the root question is why do two lesbians take/want to take testosterone to look more like men? (I think I have mentioned before my BFF is a lesbian who really doesn't get ftm) Do they think life will be easier because it won't. Medical complications and everyday discrimination will be their life. This trans movement creates a hybrid accepted by few people. My DC is heterosexual but no gay man would fancy her I believe because she is not a man. She actually fancies beefy guys which then makes the whole wanting to change gender bonkers. The glitter and fabulousness of camp gay men is not aimed at ftm, very few engage with natal women. It's about men as always.

University has had a huge impact on my young adult. She started out very militant and pushing the lecturers for inclusion (lots of accusations of transphobia). However that has wained. Ditto assuming the other students would ignore / exclude her. I am not sure these establishments have seen many ftm but they have had the training and it is very dangerous to their careers to be seen to abuse any trans person. One of my husband's few comments is nobody cares.
We had a lot of unhappiness at school and school refusal. I believe when my DC was home educated she fell into the trans ideology. It was massive 7-5 years ago. America has a lot to answer for. If I ever caught 'Miles' he would be bloody running a mile!
Watching and waiting is my policy. It is bloody exhausting and I did worry that my DC would be dragged into the whole uni trans movement. That didn't happen as the pride society had ceased to have any active members! My DC said I am not doing all the heavy lifting there! Remember stonewall was founded to campaign for equal rights for gay people and that has happened. Marriage, adoption, employment. The same laws apply to trans people. Few things are needed with the exception of third spaces for decency and protection of all people. Everything being built now has unisex loos. Scandinavian countries have had this for decades.
There is huge brain development between 18-25. You can't control a 18 year old and you don't have to be an advocate for the trans movement. I support choice for every adult, straight, gay or trans but it is just as abusive to bully your parents if they don't agree with you as a ftm.
One foot in front of the other. Do not allow her to call you a bigot, unsupportive etc. You are just looking out for her.

I agree with the pp saying message her to let her know your boundary. And I think your DH also needs to hear and respect your boundaries. You need space for yourself and your own emotions. Tell everyone to back off, go away somewhere with just you and DS, and turn your phone off. Everyone is using you as a punchbag or a sponge for their own issues and emotions and you need your own space.

Hi @Moomoola

I haven't had time to post for a while so I'm glad to see others have posted what I was thinking. Reading your post about what you want to say to your daughter compared to what you will actually say really reminds me of previous relationships where I've tried to predict the 'right' thing to say or how to act with a man, not physically abusive relationships but when I was young with men that were 'players'. It's just not a healthy way to be, and I wonder if it would be better to be honest about your feelings to your daughter and pull away as a pp said.

Along the lines of I love you very much, I'm always here for you whatever you choose to do, I just want you to do make informed decisions and care deeply that you are happy and healthy and not taking unnecessary risks.

I can only imagine how painful it must be to have your daughter suddenly separate; I never thought about how my mum might feel when I did it but we were never emotionally close anyway and she had my 4 younger siblings still at home and we did stay in contact. It was pre-mobile phones though so it had to be me ringing her from a pay phone so it wouldn't have been frequent. It would break my heart if my daughter did this to me.

The message is coming across loud and clear that she is trying to separate. I think it was Lisa Marchiano who talks about the pattern of daughters identifying as trans to separate from mothers but I can't find the article now.

If you can try and fill your life with other things and leave the ball in your daughter's court. If you feel like sending her a message send a message, but don't expect a reply, or try to second guess what her response might be. Try and take any hurtful response as you would from a younger child.

You're at the stage with her when you're renegotiating your relationship to one between adults and that needs to be rooted in honesty about how you both feel. Her brain is still developing, the pre-frontal cortex (responsible for decision making and weighing up outcomes) won't be fully developed until she's around 25.

I also think you really need to go see a different therapist, not a Stonewall one!

I found the interview where Lisa Marchiano mentions the need to separate - it's only a tiny part of a longer interview about 2/3 way through. It's an interesting talk though.

When I posted that earlier comment I thought everyone might disagree with me. Heading towards the end of the school year with so many events going on, my DC have been on my mind constantly. I can't begin to imagine, where I am now, a day my daughter could do this to me. But I'll bet that you, @Moomoola, were in a similar position when your DD was 12 too! I can't imagine ever having to say anything as difficult as I advocated you did to my own DD.

But yesterday I had to talk to my DD about how important it was that she spoke up for herself, believed in herself as a good person, and defended that if anyone ever questioned it or her. Yesterday I was telling her that exploitative people can sense if they can push and control people and she's at risk of that happening if she doesn't understand that she is entitled to be treated decently and with respect, and she must demand that.

It made me think it's critical that they see us, as mothers, doing the same. In a way, your DD is modelling the exploiter's methods from 'x' and this cult. I do think that setting boundaries, and laying out your expectation she should treat you with respect is about more than just letting the line go slack. It's also about a calm dignified self-respect, which you hope she will gain as well in response to 'x'.

All this stuff going on in her head ... she needs to make room there too for accountability for the impact her shit has on others. If it makes her feel sorry for herself and rubbish, so be it ... she needs to deal with that. There's a difference between feeling rubbish because you have issues, and rubbish because you're upsetting everyone. She shouldn't be allowed to confuse the two or be protected from her own behaviour and sense of guilt.

In a nutshell, you really don't deserve this from anyone, and especially not those who supposedly know you the best and love you. It makes me quite cross. At some point you will probably have to make a stand for yourself alone, it's just a question of when. I agree with others that you don't have much control over whether she takes testosterone or not at this stage. So now is as good a time as any. But very easy for me to say. I totally think you should try and get away for some quiet free time as well.

Thank you everyone. I’m watching the video but stuck it on pause to say hi.

there’s so much to digest here. I agree with the text. It’s something DH and I have discussed previously. He wants to add that x isn’t giving up her family.

im still reeling from the therapists. There’s 2, the grey haired cozy woman and the man with suspect blue boots who sums up at the end. Like a bad tv show. My take, which may be wrong, is that until we use new name etc and be all it’s not a safe space for DD so they can’t facilitate a meeting. There’s nothing more they can do. But We did agree to use pronouns etc.
the lady sheepishly said she’s been working with DD. FFS! Why tell me now, as I’m leaving? And she can’t tell me what DD is saying. So how does that help?
the most hurtful thing was that as they told me the sessions were ending, that this could have been resolved ages ago. - but we’ve done something wrong. We only went because their colleague was seeing DD.
im left feeling hung out to dry - it’s like another door closing us off from The little cozy coterie of DD and the therapists.

I’m so concerned. She’s been in the LGBTQ+ club at school, and now LGBT youth Scotland, set up by stonewall, and now counseling by them. And 24 hr indoctrination by the family.

were F**ked