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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return

990 replies

Moomoola · 11/01/2023 08:15

Hi, I was posting in the teens section and got some good ad vice and a suggestion that I post here.
here’s a link to that thread www.mumsnet.com/talk/teenagers/4699011-sil-cancelled-visit-as-our-dd-wants-to-be-a-man?page=1
im using ‘dd’and ‘she’ to keep things simple.
basically dd at 15 decided she was trans and I took her to get some boys clothes and didn’t pay it enough attention. To my naive mind it’s not (or wasn’t ) an issue.
Shes now 17 and started to date a girl ( x) who is 17, who’s parents paid for male hormones since 15. That was some concern as obv. X will have been through a lot. Dd mentioned that x has some mental struggles, the mum hides vodka. Dd is pretty naive, has had a few challenges and can be gullible.
in the last 3 months dd was clearly struggling.
just befor Xmas I made her a cuppa and she had vanished. We tracked her down to x house which she refused to leave. It was ibvioly coordinated as there was a lot of phone alerts and the dad had obviously come to collect her.
I asked the mum to send her back as it was Xmas day and we were concerned. I get a text back from dd saying the mum doesn’t want to be involved and why did I deadname her.
The mum obviously didn’t need to show the text to dd. There are other red flags that the mum is stirring. We got texts from dd saying we are abusive transphobes. If we try and talk rationally that’s conversion therapy. We are concerned that dd is being encouraged to write these. The grammar is sometimes too good to be dds. Any ‘friendly’ texts seem to be late at night. Though I may be overthinking that.
live managed to see dd twice so at least we are talking, but it’s as if dd is hardening herself from us. She has decided to live with x and her mum and is in love and considering top surgery as she has dysmorphia. At least she is still going to school.
we registered it with the police who said this is happening a lot and it’s a pattern.
we are not concerned about the trans thing as such, though obviously that’s part of it, we are very concerned that since dating x, a seemingly happy dd got increasingly depressed and convinced we were transphobic to the point that she had to run to xs house where she feels supported, and we feel she is being love bombed, isolated from us and coerced into thinking she also needs hormones etc.
we are getting nowhere. I seem to be living in a dystopian world where everyone has fake smiles and suggests we call her by her new name and everything will be marvellous.
live contacted Bayswater group, and I’m posting here as suggested by a pp in case anyone can suggest anything else I can do. For dd but also Dh and ds. Dh obviously distraught the more he reads and ds is spending more and more time alone on his phone.
Many thanks.

OP posts:
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Moomoola · 08/06/2023 14:55

Thank you so much mum I know and am so sorry for yo and everyone else that unfortunately understands all the myriad emotions involved in these situations.

im not sure I managed to sound quite as cohesive to DS as you suggest! But I’m grateful for the crib sheet, I think you’ve got it spot on.

I actually want to go and see her just to say hello, are you happy, leave it awhile before you take testosterone. I guess like everyone else in this situation 🌸
Dh sent ‘ why have you gone no contact. We love you, and you’ve been lied to but no worries’
shes said ‘ I’m allowed space and you and mum texting are making me feel guilty and anxious. I know you love me what do you mean I’ve been lied to’
im hoping that guilty and anxious means she’s not entirely congruent with her actions? Clutching at straws here!
ive no idea what DH is talking about. I need to find out.

DH wants me to go to the cafe, but now I feel I’ll be hounding her.
I go from thinking she’s being persuaded to do something daft, to ..it’s her life.
but most of all I just miss her.

OP posts:
beastlyslumber · 08/06/2023 15:27

Why don't you message her just that? It's your life, your body, your decision to make. I just miss you being around.

Ultimately, it is her decision. I would stop giving her anything to push against. Just say, okay, your choice, your body, and focus on trying to connect through other things.

I know it's really scary to let go but what can you do? The more you stand against her, the more it pushes her towards transition. But if you can say, you're an adult, you're living independently of us, so you get to decide for yourself, it might take some of the pressure out of the situation.

I don't know if that is good advice or not, tbh. But it seems like the only way that you can try to keep the door open with your DD. And maybe it would be good to genuinely try to let go a little bit. You can't control the situation and trying to do so is causing you so much stress. Maybe it would be good to say, okay. You know our advice and we're here if you ever need us, but this is a decision that is yours alone to make and we're not going to get involved unless you ask us to.

I don't know. I hope she sees sense.

Zebracat · 08/06/2023 15:28

Just tell her that, just tell her you miss her. I wouldn’t engage with the other stuff, it just makes you a target. Send your boy, send him with a cake and some stupid socks. Tell him plainly that you don’t want him to be caught n the middle and that if you make him feel that way at any point to say and you will stop it. Don’t go to the cafe.it’s not time yet. But her response to her Dad sounds honest, and that’s encouraging.

BreadInCaptivity · 08/06/2023 15:32

Don't go to the cafe.

She has said she wants space.

Ignoring that is just giving more ammo to her partner and mum.

Personally I'd text back and say ok, you want some space and we will give you that for a couple of weeks. Perhaps use that time to think why contact makes you feel guilty and anxious?

Then we can have a constructive conversation about how make contact better moving forward?

It will be hard for us to stop contact because we love you so much, so in respecting your request, in turn we'd really appreciate it if you didn't make any life changing decisions during this time. Love Moo xxxx

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 08/06/2023 15:33

ive no idea what DH is talking about. I need to find out.

It's so difficult when you're trying to present a united front but your DH is a bit of a loose cannon!

DH wants me to go to the cafe, but now I feel I’ll be hounding her.

If he wants to go he can! But really it was keeping the line slack that worked best before.

I go from thinking she’s being persuaded to do something daft, to ..it’s her life.

Yeah (sigh!) I can't even talk to DC about how dangerous this medication shit is. I'm just going to have to be there to pick up the pieces if/when I'm wanted.

but most of all I just miss her.

So maybe you could say that ❤

Zebracat · 08/06/2023 15:35

And I know there may be all sorts of reasons not to, and they are a massive commitment, but if there aren’t good reasons, think about getting a puppy or a kitten. It will be new life in your house, something for you all to fuss and love, and she may also want a part of that. My kids joked that I replaced each of them with an animal, and I kind of did, discovered I preferred the animals too!

Delphinium20 · 08/06/2023 16:53

I would send her a text that you miss her and hope to see her soon. And still brother see her.

2Rebecca · 08/06/2023 17:22

18 year old children often aren't in constant contact though. My son was at university for his 18th birthday and I heard from him every 2-3 weeks and then it was just a few lines on Messenger and we have a good relationship. I rarely contacted my parents after I left home at 18 for a few years. Teenagers are self obsessed and thoughtless. Chasing her won't help. She's asked you both to give her some space so I'd do that. If the family therapist isn't helpful and is affirming don't go. Your DH needs to find other things to think about as well. Your son going to see her is fine if he wants to.

TheClogLady · 08/06/2023 17:34

I don’t think the lack of contact is abnormal for an 18 year old but I appreciate that it must feel that way due to the swift and unexpected exit.

There really is very little you can do beyond keeping the door propped open in the hope that eventually she will want to come back in.

it’s just so rubbish, isn’t it? The ideal
leaving home is the ritualistic dropping at uni and driving home with a wet face, but this generation of kids seems determined to whip up an unnecessary generational drama!

My eldest had a completely abnormal uni experience (little sister in hospital the first year, quickly followed by covid) so has probably been in touch more than he would’ve been in normal circumstances - he still had a phase of not really making any contact at all for months. Now he’s almost 23 and is constantly in touch and making plans to do things with me, inviting me to HIS stuff. We’re going to the cinema on Sunday, just us two.

I wish we’d evolved to have that last bit of brain maturation just a little bit faster! Seems like the bit between 15-22 is a massive pain in the arse to get through?

Jellycats4life · 08/06/2023 18:03

I don’t think the lack of contact is too unusual either, it’s just the context isn’t it?

18 year old just gone to uni - fine
18 year old who ran away from home and completely cut their family off - different

@Moomoola In a way I’m surprised but not surprised by your son’s comment about it being normal or expected to move out at 18. In mean in some ways it is, but in the manner your DD did it, no!

I suspect this is his way of downplaying the severity of the situation; just trying to rationalise it to himself. Maybe even trying to make you feel better about everything, in a roundabout way?

Interesting that she’s reaching out to him but ignoring you. As ever, this is some sort of power game. She will be acting on some sort of advice, either in real life or trans social media. You must be so exhausted with it all.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/06/2023 21:27

By chance tonight at the end of Channel 4 news they interviewed Christine and the Queens whim I had not known about before. I think called ‘he’ he is a singer song writer, androgynous looking with a combination of feminine and masculine attractiveness and not remotely drag or camp.

I looked ‘him’ up and saw he has used any number of pronouns etc and is altogether eccentric, not a trans stereotype and certainly seems cool.

This is what is interesting: what he said about hormones and operations being a form of binarism, which is what everyone here keeps saying.
“He has stated that he is "in resistance to the approach of trans identity that there has to be hormones and operations", which he considers as a form of binarism.[11]”

He also says this very nice thing about his given name, Heloise:
"Héloïse Letissier is my parents' provenance and I love my parents. I sometimes use Héloïse to reconnect me to my childhood, but my inner child name is Manamané."[11]

Thus is a highly talented person who is not a typical trans and I thought maybe they could be a super star inspiration for you DD way above the run of the mill type.

NB This is the first I’ve heard of them so I don’t know if there are any disturbing factors about them which might be of concern, but I thought that remark of “NO HORMONES, NO OPERATIONS, TOO BINARY” from this version if trans person, with a lovely French accent and philisophical speech, could maybe be a role model.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_and_the_Queens
She looks different on Channel 4 tonight

Christine and the Queens - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_and_the_Queens

Moomoola · 08/06/2023 23:12

Thank you so much everyone, you are all so kind.
beastly I think that is good advice. As mentioned before, the slack rope seems to work. And yes, I wouldn’t call my mum more than every two weeks or so. It’s normal. As jellycats says, it’s the context. And it does feel like power games.
so far, I’ve now discovered, every action has been a cliche. I need the list of to dos they all seem to read!
zebracat socks, a cake and a cat made me laugh!a silly present and as you all say, a loving text makes a lot of sense. I think a cat may be good for Dh to cuddle. He seems so exhausted.
2rebecca yes, you are right, I have to respect her need for space. It’s a lot of space - Dh has seen her for an hour since Xmas. He’s sooo upset and bewildered.
its great if she wants to see DS. They’ll sort it out and if she tells son I’m awful, oh well. I’ll be stoic! As mentioned on the previous page- stoic mum website seems to be an interesting read.
DH is saying he has to meet her in the garden, and not bring X. I sometimes wonder if half of my confusion is coming from him being super anxious and maybe a tad controlling. But then every insane thing he predicted has happened. So maybe I’m the idiot that’s too laid back.
clog I’m so glad you and your son are now seeing each other. Have a fab fun time 🥳 sending popcorn!
jellycats you may well be right - he’s very kind. On holiday he quietly kept checking I was ok while I wobbled along on an electric scooter. And yes, it’s definitely a power game. DH again predicted she’d send a nice text just before her birthday then clam up again. He thinks she’s being totally controlled by X who is quite scarily clever actually.
scrolling ooh, thank you, I’ll definitely share with DD when I get a chance. I’ve found a new crush! Maybe I’m genderfluid! they are very interesting, and strong.
funny isn’t it, androgyny when it’s stylish and creative has always been fascinating. Just not when it’s shoved down your throat by primark and the like. And again, I say grrrrrr.
gosh, didn’t mean to write a novel! Sorry all, I just very much enjoy ruminating on your collective wisdom, and feel very ..privileged (?) that you are taking the time to write.
may you all have a cozy nights sleep x

OP posts:
2Rebecca · 08/06/2023 23:26

I don't think you can be too laid back when she's 18. You have very little power and have to try and win the war not the fight. Focus on being the unconditionally loving real family who will always be there for her but who still worry she is making a mistake

Moomoola · 08/06/2023 23:50

Thanks 2
youre right.

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Redbird87 · 09/06/2023 01:50

@Moomoola So frustrating. Don't worry about DS, he's not going to be so easily swayed by manipulation bc he was there, he knows you weren't foaming at the mouth and flinging slurs. You were patient and reasonable, if not terrified. That's still going to be painted as abusive, but only amongst others in the queer community, bc that's how that works now. If GF is anything like the people I've known who she reminds me of, she's whispering to DD about how mistreated she is and how her nutty parents are going to show up at her place of work. It's going to lead up to some kind of order of protection or no-contact order against you guys, those very serious legal threats are bandied about like they're nothing in that community and I saw it happen several times. The cult aspect is so so embedded. But as she continues this path, she's going to see how ftm's are treated by the rest of the community, especially mtf's, she's going to see her friends have medical issues, and she might even realize how unhappy she is. Maybe she'll notice her friends taking on they/them as a soft place to fall when being trans is too much. I hope for that whenever this crosses my mind.Love to my based and Moomin-pilled mumsnetters

Dd ran away to be with trans lover and refuses to return
Name5 · 09/06/2023 06:04

I am sorry OP this is still going on. I remember the original posts.
My DD wanted 'top surgery' at 17. However she had a change of heart last year at 19. My DD has a bi sexual boyfriend (natal male) who has pulled her strings since she was 14. We have never met him and I have warned her he poses a health risk if he is sleeping with men too. He was encouraging surgery. 'Be your real self' shit. She now realises if she wants an easy time when she has her children (new desire last year and frozen eggs dismissed as risky and wasteful of NHS resources- she didn't realise she would have had to pay!)
What I do know since going to university my DD has dialled down the ftm desire. Yes there is a male name and clothes but the request for hormones and reassignment has disappeared. She has even 'admired' some very heterosexual peers. We had five years of glitter families, drag race, Internet stars (f*cking Miles), requests for Mermaids and huge school refusal. Everyone was transphobic and she self harmed.
She is studying a medical subject so I am hoping that this cult is covered in her syllabus. We had one interesting incident where she went to join the university LGBTQ society and it had closed due to lack of members! Perhaps the need for a label is waining in Gen Z? My understanding is the waiting list for surgery is 6 years. Unless someone pays privately (and few surgeons will carry this out on someone under 25 due to future claims) there is time for your DD to have a change of heart. I would be interested to know if the gf is having surgery or just pushing it on your DD?
Interestly my DH has never called our daughter by her male name. His response is just no. I call her a jokey version and our DS who is older ignores it all. The best thing I ever did is say I can't support this but I love you. I won't be responsible for the fall out if you take hormones or have surgery. It is a difficult life as a transperson. I think my young adult is now seeing that.
I believe wear what you like, call yourself Fred but leave your options open. It is perverse few mtf people have surgery (less than 2500 per year) but it is pushed in young girls. I wonder why that is?

Fukuraptor · 09/06/2023 07:48

I think there's a lot in stoicism - accepting what you cannot control.

My children are younger. One day I was in another room and heard a noise. Then older kid says "you've broken the TV". They didn't sound hurt so I didn't immediately rush through. My youngest comes through utterly distraught and tells me what happened.

What I was amazed by was having even a short gap (under 30 secs) where I accepted the TV was broken (thankfully insured!) before he came through meant I was able to respond calmly and kindly to a child who had accidentally damaged something and was honest and brave in coming and taking responsibility for it. My first response could be "are you hurt?".

That gap allowed me to respond in a way I was proud of. If I had been in the room, trying to get him to stop being wild or admonish him to be careful and been too late, then my impotent frustration would made it difficult to be that clear and calm. I'd have told him off, perhaps angrily and his attention would have been on my reaction not on what he had done.

Back to your daughter. If she had already taken testosterone - or even something non trans related like gotten a facial tattoo - and then regretted it, then I think you could, like my young kid with the broken TV, find that you could respond with compassion to a wrong choice already made. Because there is acceptance that it can't be undone so your focus moves instead to maintaining a good relationship and problem solving with them how we move on from here.

But because instead of having already occured, you are seeing her teetering on the edge of a decision you think she'll one day regret, you are full of frustration because if she'd only do what you tell her too then she could save herself that pain. So you (and your husband) are distressed and trying to do all you can to get her to see it's a wrong choice to prevent disaster. You have the illusion that it is something you can stop if you just say the right thing etc.

Accepting that it is a choice she could make whatever you say or do. Forgiving yourself for not knowing what the magic words are(if any) to stop it. Focusing on adapting to the parent of an adult relationship and it's sorrow that we can't protect them from everything forever, even themselves. Staying a reliable place for her to come back to and acting within your own integrity which might mean not cheering her on self harming her body, whatever society says. I think that's all you can do.

A quote from Harry Potter that comes to mind, related to the estranged young adult Percy Weasley who hasn't resumed contact with his parents even after its clear they were right is: "Dumbledore says people find it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right."

Good luck with it all.

Redbird87 · 09/06/2023 22:34

Stoicism is a great philosophy, and it's interesting how you see it in different cultures. But it's easy to fall into fatalism, and I think that's something to just be aware of when studying it. All the same, it's helped me a lot.

FaceLikeCattle · 10/06/2023 14:20

There are some amazing responses here and I think it's good to compare it to the usual pattern when kids leave home. It's true that you don't tend to hear from them all that much and that's ok. I wonder if this whole trans thing is just the new way to shock parents and be different. I was a teenager in the 90s where our generation was very much into heavy drinking, casual sex and soft drugs. I remember my mother telling me one morning that she had a nightmare about me taking drugs and woke up scared. I didn't take drugs (but probably would if I could have got hold of them) but did drink a lot and have sex with some dodgy blokes. I was like this and so was most of my generation to a greater or lesser degree. Now we are mostly boring people in our 40s.

I think it's the same for every generation. The whole sex, drugs and rock and roll of the 70s; the 60s and their free love and LSD,' the 80s and glue sniffing. This is all just off the top of my head and not even in a coherant order, but every generation has their idiotic decisions that the teenagers love and the parents worry endlessly about. Most of us survived these things largely unscathed.

Also every generation fights for a cause that they put all their energy into, mostly that is good causes like the environment, but other times it is misguided, like the trans movement.

I think the trans thing wil go the same way as all other generational fads, most kids are just going along for the ride and won't get that deeply involved, they will be male/female/cat/tree and shout that nobody understands them. Then they'll need money so get a job, their brain matures and they won't have the energy or inclanation for being so passionate about good causes any more. Then the subsequent generation will look on them with scorn, call them "old" and "boring" and find something new to shout about.

I think this is something you just have to ride out. You can be grateful that she's not in the generation who smoked heavily, where loads died of lung cancer, nor is she drinking loads, sleeping around or taking recreational drugs. I'm not saying that it's good what she's doing, but I don't think it's that different to what you did and your parents before that.

beastlyslumber · 10/06/2023 14:39

Yes, some of the motivations may be the same, facelikecattle, but actually the big scary difference is that teenagers going down the trans path are very much on a path which leads to hormones and surgeries that will devastate their mental health and their physical health.

When I was an obnoxious teenager, no adults were telling me that I was right to hate my body or that I needed dangerous, untested treatments to deal with my issues. Even with anorexia or self-harm, no one was telling teenage girls that their bodies were wrong and that they needed to starve or cut themselves in order to feel better about themselves.

Obviously it's a fad and a fashion and if ignored and left to their own devices, teens would quickly desist. But they are being given so much attention and taken so seriously, and that makes it dangerous. The whole massive industry devoted to medicalising teens' trans identity makes it different and scary compared to what's gone before.

Name5 · 10/06/2023 17:28

@beastlyslumber lots to agree with there.

FaceLikeCattle · 10/06/2023 20:53

No, that's very true actually @beastlyslumber . There were no adults in my life encouraging my bad decisions and certainly not teachers, doctors and other people who we are taught to trust. You made a good point.

Moomoola · 13/06/2023 14:53

There certainly is beastly and face like
Redbird thank you for your insight into this group. That's certainly good to know. I hope you are right. Love to moominnetters!
Name5 well done,! That sounds like a horrible few years - I'm so glad they evseem sense.

OP posts:
Moomoola · 13/06/2023 15:00

The best thing I ever did is say I can't support this but I love you. I won't be responsible for the fall out if you take hormones or have surgery. It is a difficult life as a transperson.
Very wise!
Face like - I do get that she could be taking other drugs etc etc. I think, we know where she is, and maybe we are still in touch so it could be worse.
She did see her brother who was nervous. He took some money off DH to treat them to lunch. He just said it was ok, they talked about school, not us and I can't push it.
DH thinks it's a play to get attention again so we've let the rope go slack and not texted.

OP posts:
Moomoola · 13/06/2023 15:03

This, from another mum is very clear. Its taken me a long time to realize this is actually a thing. Please share!

Https://www.gendermapper.org/post/the-secret-tactics-of-glitter-moms-a-tale-of-betrayal-and-grooming

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