Helen Joyce on Triggernometry

[beastlyslumber]

Space here if anyone wants to discuss. I've only seen the first couple of minutes and had to switch it off and look at some puppies, but will fortify myself and watch the rest tomorrow.

She is stunning in her intellect and brave in her delivery.

I really do love how straightforward she is, it's so refreshing. She is not pissing about.

The Trig boys do have some brilliant guests on (and Ollie London who was mentioned was great too, though for different reasons and I fear is is quite damaged, but I found him honest and likeable).

Thank you for the link. Really worth watching.

Thanks for the link. Look forward to watching. Helen Joyce always gets the point across

It was really good, she does no waffling and gets straight to the point.

I couldn't get all the way through the Oli London one. He talks so quickly and in an almost rehearsed manner. What a fast turnaround from "transracial" to where he is now. It all feels really off. Maybe he just is that damaged and susceptible to influence.

Saving the Helen Joyce one for in the car later this week

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4668426-petition-update-the-equality-act-to-make-clear-the-characteristic-sex-is-biological-sex?page=1

Link to petition she mentions at the end.

I actually really enjoyed the oli london one... I actually kind of respect him after that. He sat there and admitted 'i fucked up'. He also had interesting insights into the affects of social media... He also talked a fair bit about the problem of paedophilia at the moment and the sexualisation of kids.

I actually found him to be humble, honest, insightful and surpisingly intelligent.

I think we have got to permit people to admit they fucked up. It takes courage to do that. He said his driving force was he felt very guilty about potentially influencing people to have stupid surgeries.

I just listened though, i didnt watch. I imagine that would have been weirder.

Thanks so much OP, excellent interview!

Helen Joyce is so articulate.

I found myself very concerned for Oli London. He seems really vulnerable and his detransition seems to be so recent for him.

I saw the trailer for this interview and I am looking forward to watching it tomorrow

Thank you! Looking forward to listening later when I'm doing some jobs.

Anything with Helen Joyce is a great listen.

I agree on the points re Oli. It appeared to be a very rapid turnaround and he said he was over his addiction to the surgery and I'm afraid I not convinced and I did. It difficult to believe something so serious can be overcome in a matter of a few short months, but maybe it's possible. I hope so.

I think he is an example of a vulnerable young man falling for a version of this online affirmation and now he can barely move the muscles in his face. I saw him on GB News recently re self ID in Scotland and he did come across as sensible and informed.

I have yet to watch all of the Helen Joyce interview but god she's good, I've enjoyed the first 20 mins. What others take 10 mins to say she can say in 1 so the rest will continue to be jam packed I'm sure.

I've watched about a third so far. She is so extraordinarily eloquent. I was very glad that she started by talking about this as a mathematical issue and the problem of circular definitions, because this is something that has bothered me a lot. Once you start changing the definition of something that has significance in law, to the point where the definition no longer has a clear boundaried meaning, then you will inevitably cause problems.

It was interesting too the way she talked about the importance in critical race theory of having a firm boundary between white and black people that white people can never cross, while in queer theory you have the opposite - a belief that boundaries are fluid.

Sall Grover on Twitter said that, in terms of ability to form a cogent, persuasive argument, she is similar to the late Christopher Hitchens. An interesting comparison, I thought.

I agree. She is such an important voice. I listen to her talk a lot so I was aware of her eloquence and clear articulation. But the thing that made me stop and think was when she said if you decide to speak on this topic you cannot speak on anything else, because you will become unemployable. I know we know this. But for me it heightens the sacrifices these women are making. I find I feel humbled and resolve to do whatever I can do to support them.

It was stark when she said -the doctors didn't consult women - or something like that. There are ethical issues behind many medical treatments that impact society. I was listening to a discussion about egg freezing on R4 this morning. This subject can lead into all sorts of avenues in which humans are vulnerable to those who would make profit from them. We need the ethicists to have more influence in human activity without the profit motive. Digressing, like I always do......

I was also impressed with Oli London - wish him well. He seems to have clarity and I hope he finds peace with himself.

Thanks for the link, I've just watched the interview and as others have said, HJ is so very calm and clear in what she says.

I really try to say 'Men who call themselves women' or 'Men who want to / want us to pretend they are women' in place of transwomen when I have real life conversations because it clarifies the issue.

I also hadn't thought of her point that the erotic cross dressers are not necessarily just about the fetish - they may also have a body dysmorphic problem co existing. I tended to think of it as either/or.

Great interview

There are many women who speak in compelling ways in this issue but HJ speaks with such impressive, soothing clarity I could listen to her for hours. Her manner is direct and no nonsense without being confrontational. She just such a pleasure to listen to.

I'm so glad that she made the point that anyone who actually cares about people with gender dysphoria would not embrace this ideology. Anyone struggling to accept their own body deserves the medical and political establishment to take it as seriously as any other condition and should have the same right to have their treatment informed by robust research.

I'm also glad that she stuck to her guns on language; men who think they are women is accurate.

She gives me confidence we will win.

@NancyDrawed in 2021 Benjamin Boyce interviewed Lisa/James Shupe who spoke about that problem. I was struck by his saying that the AGP tendency was uncontrollably strong unless he took cross sex hormones. So if he said to medical professionals he had dysphoria and took CSH he had an easier time controlling his fetish. If he tried not to take the CSH the AGP returned with a vengeance. He put this down to the effect of testosterone in the body. It was a very honest conversation, there was a thread about it at the time here, although it looks as if the interview has been taken down. I am glad that Helen highlights this problem, with compassion, and also says that the answer is not to simply roll over and accept that this is the way things are now. She does say that society needs a compassionate answer, but just agreeing is not it.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4346341-James-Lisa-Shupe-on-autogynephilia

I've listened to it as a podcast. Riveting and brilliant.

What I like is that she really cares about the health (mental and physical) of the people caught up in this ideology, even the middle-aged men whose 'transness' is probably a fetish - she points out that such a sexual desire can often be troubling and come with gender dysphoria.

She is hugely compassionate, and also knows her stuff - the data, the facts & figures.

What a good listen. Always a relief to hear someone speak so eloquently and compassionately without the errs and umms that follow trying to adhere to the intimidatory language 'rules'.
I suspect we wouldn't be in this position if women had been allowed to speak freely about the porn pushers, the flashers, the coercive controllers who were evident even in the early days (thinking of some of those invited to the parliament to share their demands).

Bit of an odd take by Helen, who supposedly gets it.

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1612413216906436609?cxt=HHwWgoDTjeTRuOAsAAAA

beastlyslumber· Yesterday 21:58
Space here if anyone wants to discuss. I've only seen the first couple of minutes and had to switch it off and look at some puppies, but will fortify myself and watch the rest tomorrow.

Thank you very much. That is so clearly argued.

See 0:59 minutes in to see why to sign the Sex-Matters petition about updating the Equality Act to make clear that sex means biological sex.

Very interesting question at the end too about ‘What is the one thing we aren’t talking about that we need to?” H J answers that it is children’s mental health.

WildIris · Today 13:40
Bit of an odd take by Helen, who supposedly gets it

twitter.com/HJoyceGender/status/1612413216906436609?cxt=HHwWgoDTjeTRuOAsAAAA
Helen Joyce on Triggernometry

I am not sure if I’ve understood what you mean but I took it that she is conceding this point of agreement about transwomen being vulnerable in prisons in order to diverge from tras in her opinion about what the solution is.

In the context she is separating the issues:

Women have sex based private spaces where this particular group of men (transwomen) should not be allowed.

This group of men (transwomen), just like some other groups of men whom she lists, are vulnerable in men’s prisons and need their own wing. That is the solution. Not putting them into women’s prisons.

wildIris if you watch the interview you’ll see Helen explains what she means very clearly.

Bit of an odd take by Helen, who supposedly gets it.

How's it "odd"? You're going to have to spell this out for me.

I trust you've seen the wider context, and heard the relevant part of the interview they're discussing? - starts at 36:58.

I guess you can argue they shouldn't be vulnerable, because homophobia/transphobia/gender-policing shouldn't be a thing, but a male prison is unlikely to be the most progressive gender-critical express-yourself-however-you-like anti-bullying environment.

And she's not suggesting they're somehow more vulnerable than all the other vulnerable groups of men she mentions.