Helen Joyce on Triggernometry

[beastlyslumber]

Space here if anyone wants to discuss. I've only seen the first couple of minutes and had to switch it off and look at some puppies, but will fortify myself and watch the rest tomorrow.

I understand what she is saying. Men who look or act effeminate may be targeted for rape by the Mr Big who runs the prison. Despite there being plenty of situational homosexuality, the culture in a male prison is very homophobic. The answer to this, as she also says - and as we know, and as still happens with most male trans prisoners - is proper safeguarding within the men's prison estate. Not endangering women by moving male inmates into women's prisons.

Yes. It's also quite rare to listen to someone who has carefully read up, thought about, researched and reached their own conclusions and then is comfortable discussing them.

We're so used to people 'performing' in interviews, falling back on pat lines, not listening or responding, not really engaging.

Refreshing to hear an intelligent argument presented in a very down to earth human way - not point scoring and not evangelising.

Agree.

Mindfulness if it's done well isn't 'rumination' at all. It can be truly wonderful - it also doesn't work for everyone, needs to be taught by a properly qualified teacher and can even risk triggering mental health problems in some people if misapplied.

I think you're quite right about the need for children to roll about outdoors and just play.

And that point is right to make; any male prisoner who identifies as trans more due to a lifetime of homophobia/ mental health difficulties/ asd etc is likely to be more vulnerable to attacks by other inmates.

The answer IS to make sure appropriate safeguarding occurs in the male estate to ensure that both these individuals are safe, but also so we don't end up in the circular gridlock of "this is transphobic/ my human rights/ I suffer from male violence too" in debates about this.

It's not up to women to fix this; Men need to step up to protect all males and not offload on to women.

I do agree it can be useful Arabella; certainly it is evidenced in adults but in my own experience it's still very different for different adults. What works for one doesn't work for another.

Many of these initiatives in primary schools are often taught second or third hand. Staff loose sight of the true aims and key points. When you're just going through the motions to tick off a box it's going to be ineffective. There's also sometimes an over load of training initiatives. Something new pops up the next sept brought in by some keen new member of slt and other things go by the wayside.

Many strategies across teaching SEND I've been initially told to 'just do' were completely different when I then later attended first hand training.

(sorry off topic, it's v frustrating!)

I too thought Helen Joyce’s comment
on children’s mental health at the very end was almost more important than the rest, if that is possible.

In light of that, if anyone reading here has not yet signed it, this is a petition against teaching ‘gender identity’ in children’s PSHE/RSE lessons in schools (attendance compulsory).

Even when they leave out those words I have seen enough of a very popular outsourced provider in which the materials and information are definitely, if insidiously, promoting the ideology.

Petition:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/618970

I like how when they question something she says and say, "so you think that..." And she corrects with, "no, the EVIDENCE shows" or "I can't find any evidence to support.."

She makes it clear that she's looked into, read up, considered and concluded based on good quality evidence. It's not about her feelings or opinion.

I can only imagine that the BBC are too scared to have her on as she speaks too much sense and packs so much content in - she is about the only person I don't listen to at 1.75 speed!

unherd.com/2023/01/how-we-created-a-self-hating-generation/

I wonder if anyone else might appreciate this thought-provoking article by Lionel Shriver about the consequences of us as a society focused on Identity rather than the lifetime work of building character - which mirrors Helen Joyce's concerns about (how we are co-creating?) mental health issues in teenagers.

"Transgenderism may have grown so alluring to contemporary minors not only because it promises a new “identity”, but because it promises a process. Transforming from caterpillar to butterfly entails a complex sequence of social interventions and medical procedures that must be terribly engrossing. Transitioning is a project. Everyone needs a project. Embracing the trans label gifts the self with direction, with a task to accomplish. Ironically, the contagion expresses an inchoate yearning for the cast-off paradigm whereby character is built."

"By withholding the assurance, “Don’t worry about not knowing who you are; you’re just not grown up yet, and neither are we, because growing up isn’t over at 18 or 21 but is something you do your whole life through”, we are cultivating self-hatred, disillusionment, bewilderment, frustration, and fury. Young women often turn their despair inward — hence the high rates of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, and cutting. Young men are more apt to project the barrenness of their interior lives onto the rest of the world and take their disappointment out on everyone else."

Wow, that essay by Lionel Shriver is incredible! Thanks for sharing. She's such a brilliant writer. The comments are interesting too.

I really like Helen Joyce's formulation of "men who think they're women" - I think it's actually both accurate and kind. And as she points out, it's a very different proposition to say, "transwomen should be allowed in women's sports," compared to, "men who think they're women should be allowed in women's sports." It makes it all so clear without being offensive to either women or men who think they're women. And it holds to reality.

Yes, she's constantly evolving the language and I'd encourage everyone to follow her. 'Transwomen' has confused a lot of ordinary people who aren't sure whether we're talking about males or females. 'Men who think they're women' is much clearer. And instead of 'cis' women, 'real women'. And suddenly all becomes clear. We now need to find a better description for ourselves than Gender Critical, because that's very confusing. 90% of the population hold GC beliefs, but only 20% understands what GC means.

How do I know this? I went leafletting in various local towns 14 times last year and I spoke to hundreds of ordinary people and heard their confusion for myself.

Helen Joyce, if you're reading, please come up with a better term for GC. Thank you.

Yes, gender critical is not a good term. It makes people think you're critical of transgender people. I never use the term to describe myself but I must admit I haven't got a better alternative. I feel like I don't need a label because I'm just an ordinary person with a grasp on reality - maybe Gender Realist?

Gender realist is certainly an improvement. Maybe just 'realist'? I'm a realist, I don't believe that people can change sex or that men who think they're women should be allowed in women's changing rooms. That works, doesn't it?

I think the answer is to simplify. Move away from the definitions purloined from Queer theory and go back to plain English.

I wonder whether a next step might be 'men who want us to believe they're women'?

I dislike GC too for those reasons beastly. It's made it worse imo to have a name for people who understand biology as it's then used as a "collective hate group," instead of people who aren't fooled by gender ideology for a variety of reasons!

Is ‘men who think/believe they are women’ - which is so much clearer- a description allowed here? Only recently it would have been called transphobic.

‘Gender critical’ is very difficult to understand indeed.

I think her point - as she says - is that TW may be vulnerable in the male estate, but

• they are not uniquely vulnerable - there are other vulnerable men (and she lists some).

AND...

• the prison system has (or had) experience and systems for accommodating them without using women in the prison system as human shields.

So what changed? And why are women’s prisons supposed to solve the problem of managing men!

"Helen Joyce, if you're reading, please come up with a better term for GC. Thank you."

She already has. She talks of being a "sex realist" or having sex-realist views, as opposed to sex-denialist views.

I'm with pattihews in that I think we can just say "realist". That's what I tend to call myself, anyway, when I'm having those sorts of conversations with people.

100% - the most recent research showed that mindfulness is ineffective at best in a school setting. I believe most sensible providers will have paused while they work out better strategies.

My children did a summer school transition programme for high school transfer. At the workshops there were sessions (multiple) on mental health, anxiety, mindfulness etc and some of the youth workers wore t shirts saying "I have anxiety - come and talk to me about it" or similar.

Whilst I have no doubt that some very young children do have poor mental health and other issues prior to leaving primary, they are surely small in number but also require careful, professional, nuanced support and I would imagine are highly likely to have circumstances or experiences that contribute and also require careful handling.

It struck me as odd to almost insist to these 10/11 yr olds that poor mental health is almost inevitably in their future, that any nervousness about a new school is pathologised as "anxiety" and that they should be discussing a late teens/early twenties potentially self diagnosed/untreated issues with them.

Lisa Selin Davis also talking about mental health and resilience in children. lisaselindavis.substack.com/p/my-fear-5b3
And yet schools and governments seem intent on bolstering the idea that children and young people are rife with vulnerability and an inability to cope with life. Chicken and egg.

I really like Helen Joyce's formulation of "men who think they're women" - I think it's actually both accurate and kind. And as she points out, it's a very different proposition to say, "transwomen should be allowed in women's sports," compared to, "men who think they're women should be allowed in women's sports." It makes it all so clear without being offensive to either women or men who think they're women. And it holds to reality.

Unfortunately, I think many 'men who think they're women' would find this term very offensive. What makes you think they wouldn't @beastlyslumber?

Only months ago either TWAW or it was transphobic.
Keir Starmer said about TWAW, ‘It’s the law’.

If on mumsnet lots of posters begin referring to ‘Men who think they are women’, I wonder if they would be reported and deleted?

So sorry something went wrong there.
A few months ago either one said ‘TWAW’ or it was thought to be transphobic.