Helen Joyce on Triggernometry

[beastlyslumber]

Space here if anyone wants to discuss. I've only seen the first couple of minutes and had to switch it off and look at some puppies, but will fortify myself and watch the rest tomorrow.

Gender critical is not the same as sex realist. Sex realism is knowing that there are two and only two sexes, that sex is fixed at conception and is immutable.

Being gender critical is disbelief in innate gender, seeing it as a social construct and - if you are a feminist - seeing it as the means of oppressing women.

So you can be a sex realist, like 99% of the world, but not be GC. I do agree that a better name is needed, though. I never want to hear the word "gender" again as long as I live.

I never want to hear the word "gender" again as long as I live.

I so agree. It has too many meanings and has caused havoc. It never should have been moved from a grammar description in foreign languages.

I liked Hadley Freeman's reality based feminist.
Saw someone using it recently be told that was offensive 😵‍💫

@OakAshBeech Well I don't know about how the men who think they're women will respond, but I think it's accurate, neutral language that most people I'm talking to wouldn't be offended by. It'll be hard for people to articulate their problem with it, anyway, since "men who think they're women" is the only accurate description if you don't believe twaw. If I'm talking to someone who believes twaw I can adapt it to, "those who think that men who think they are women are women." People will take a moment to parse the grammar and in that gap, LOGIC and REALISM will sneak in!

I find the phrase "men who think they're women" to be both kind and truthful. I find the phrase "trans women are women" unkind, untrue and deeply offensive. I am a woman though and we all know many people will disregard my opinion based solely on that fact.

I often use "me who want to be women." But "men who believe they are women", "men who think they are women" or "men who try to act like they are women" also work.

*men

"me who want to be women" is funny because although I am a woman, I don't always like it.

I never want to hear the word "gender" again as long as I live.

Same, it really is problematic because it means different things to different people.

Some use it to mean sex (male/female), some refer to their inner gendered soul, or their gender identity. We really do need a new word/s with specific definitions.

Men who claim to be women?

Because we know they make the claim but can’t tell how sincere or otherwise they may be.

Two categories - men who claim to be women, and men who believe they are women. Actually, three categories, because some men who transition to relieve extreme dysphoria don't actually claim to be women.

Men who say they are women.

As it is just words they say.

Or ‘men who pretend they’re women’. Because that’s entirely accurate - it is just a pretence. But they won’t like that!

Or ‘men who pretend they’re women’. Because that’s entirely accurate - it is just a pretence. But they won’t like that!

But the group we're worried about are different - they're "men who expect you to pretend they're women".

And there's not full overlap - some men who pretend won't want you to pretend. And some men who obviously don't pretend at all want you to pretend.

Necessary 😂🤪

How about we just stick to ‘men’, then.

How about we just stick to ‘men’, then.

Fair enough. But don't stick to men, cos that would be gross.

But don't stick to men, cos that would be gross.

I don’t 😉!

Men who identify as women?

Personally I'd go with Dr.Julia Long's "men who demand that we call them women".

To change direction a bit, I finished watching this wonderful interview and was caught by Joyce's thoughts on parents who have made irrevocable decisions for their children based on the assumption the rest of the world would accommodate them. Now that there's pushback, Joyce expects these parents will double down and fight back hard.

I'd like to hope this isn't true - and to some extent we should view it as very tragic for both parents and children, but it's an intriguing prediction and I wonder how it will manifest when, in 10/15/20 years there are no more trans children.

I wonder how it will manifest when, in 10/15/20 years there are no more trans children.

I so wish I could believe that time will come Delphinium20

There will be a lot if people ageing with permanent damage. Much of which will worsen as scar tissue ages.

In some countries this will happen - it already is:

mobile.twitter.com/duchess_elle/status/1612574102967185409

Not exactly children, but here in Wales Emily Bridges' mother is hitting out wildly at anyone who questions her son's right to compete in women's cycling. She fires off threats to any organisation or expert or individual who says anything at all that may directly or indirectly raise questions about men competing in women's sport. Page after page of raging complaint to anyone she can think of, often aimed at the wrong people and getting fundamental facts wrong. I know two people who've been on the end of it. It changes nothing, her complaints are groundless, but it wastes hours of time and energy. There's a kind of manic fury about her that is quite disturbing. Perhaps that's what Helen meant by doubling down.

We have our own experience with Bridges mum on this board. You are spot on with the getting fundamental facts wrong bit.

My wee brain cannot keep up with Helen Joyce, and so I listen to her at 0.75 of normal speed, and all is well!