All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

[waterwitch]

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

Some of you see me as advocating for men, but to me transwomen are women, which is why advocating for them is completely compatible with my feminism

Can you tell me what exactly it is you think makes somebody a woman rather than a man, pippbg? Because it’s really not clear what the word “woman” means to you.

I don’t know what it is you think all women have in common, that they don’t have in common with men, apart from biology. I can’t think of anything myself. (Apart from maybe female socialisation, to an extent, but again that’s not an experience shared by anyone who’s biologically male, for obvious reasons.)

I would really appreciate it if you could tell me what this thing is that all women and the male people you call TW have in common, that all other male people don’t.

(Saying you include people who identify as a woman wouldn’t be helpful as it’s self-referential and so still doesn’t explain what they’re identifying as.)

TIA.

scratchedbymycat I'm sorry to hear about your experiences.

I had a different take. Bear with, it might be long.

Many years ago for work I and a colleague attended a course, conflict resolution? about how to react if you get a curmudgeonly/angry/sly/sends the hair on the back of your neck to attention, service user.
Now I dont remember much now but one bit I do remember is the course teacher "pretending" to get angry and worked up and he took off his belt, his face went red, he stormed about. He was very good at acting or he was the hulk, not sure.
But anyway as he stormed towards me and my colleague, we both fell about in fits of laughter. Giggling merrily. We were the only two there that did this. The other 15 or so just started at us.
Now I cant speak for the colleague, but I do know she had some domestic violence in her past. I had had a pretty terrible life until fairly recently at that time, including cse, DV, emotional abuse, familial abuse, loneliness and more.
I know why I "fawned" I wanted to not get hit. I'm pretty sure colleague was the same. We both chose laughing over running.
Our aim was defuse the situation with laughing. A completely made up situation.
It still weirds me out. I mean we were objectively safe, it was a course not real life. The trainer wanted us to stay back, I think so he could tell us it was fake and possibly to offer help in some form, but we were both first out and we never talked about it. I worked with colleague another several years, so it's not like we never saw each other again.
Anyway the point is fawning isnt just about emotional labour, also self preservation.

I had a different take. Bear with, it might be long.

Many years ago for work I and a colleague attended a course conflict resolution? about how to react if you get a curmudgeonly/angry/sly/sends the hair on the back of your neck to attention, service user.
Now I dont remember much now but one bit I do remember is the course teacher "pretending" to get angry and worked up and he took off his belt, his face went red, he stormed about. He was very good at acting or he was the hulk, not sure.
But anyway as he stormed towards me and my colleague, we both fell about in fits of laughter. Giggling merrily. We were the only two there that did this. The other 15 or so just started at us.
Now I cant speak for the colleague, but I do know she had some domestic violence in her past. I had had a pretty terrible life until fairly recently at that time, including cse, DV, emotional abuse, familial abuse, loneliness and more.
I know why I "fawned" I wanted to not get hit. I'm pretty sure colleague was the same. We both chose laughing over running

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola

That’s very interesting. And really not just in our species is it? Grinning and teeth chattering, etc, happen as a fear/self-preservation response, along with submissive postures in apes and monkeys.

It is so deep down hardwired, that I think it is as unfair to women, to expect us to not modify our behaviour when a man is present, as it would be to expect someone not to blink if some else flicks their fingers close to their eye.

If transwomen can say 'I'd prefer to be in spaces with only women' they are lauded for it.

If women say 'I'd prefer to be in spaces with only women' we are attacked.

Why is that?

Because TWAM

(sorry, couldn’t resist)

In terms specifically of men joining women's groups I sort of have experience of this

I belong to a heritage craft group that generally speaking tends to be something women do more of but historically the group has always been open to everyone

Over the 30+ years I have been going I can remember 3 men attending at different times.

The first two were extremely assertive to the point of aggression, they both managed to get elected to the committee very quickly and then bullied the other members of the committee to the point of tears on more than one occasion. I can remember horrific committee meetings and AGMs that still get talked about now 20 years later where red faced men yelled at women because they wanted to be heard and be the most important and vocal person in the room.

Currently we have one man in the group, he's fairly quiet and fairly happy to stay more in the background but I will say @EndlessTea had the best description of the dynamic

I have experienced a man in a women’s group and the women’s behaviour changes. It becomes a male-dominated group, he gets ‘honorary’ status given to him. Women will hang on his every word more than he deserves, be deferent, overly-appreciative, they’ll subtly change everything to accommodate him - and they won’t even realise they are doing it. Female socialisation. That’s without even factoring his male socialisation and probable male entitlement.

This is precisely it. He is fawned over and his word is taken as having more weight to it. Additionally he automatically assumes he is he expert in the room on every given craft (our group encompasses 3 main crafts but we touch upon probably 7 others). Even if he has done the craft or not before he will talk as if he knows more than everyone else in the room, and more irritatingly assume everyone is a beginner in need of his tuition. He will stop women who did one of the crafts as their professional paid jobs for 40+ years and ask them of they want him to show them how to do something they could probably do in their sleep. And that's a quiet fairly mild mannered man.

Our group will never be women's only because its been historically open to both and the main body it's aligned to is open to both sexes but having been a member when there have just been women and when there has been a mix there is a perceptible difference

Actually recounting it brings it all back.

Yes we were both Terrified and doing our level best to hide that. Not only from him necessarily but the whole group. I had angled myself to the door when he started. I knew I was probably going to run. This was all safe in the knowledge it's a fake, A course, he cannot actually hit us and, well others would get involved if he did. I put I knew I was going to run, but I had plans to take colleague with me. I could see in her the fear and I would absolutely not leave her even if it slowed me down. <<<< this later on led me to do what I can for other women now. I'm no longer scared and I will stand in the way of any man to let another woman escape. I help them when I get the chance. I own a house where I can hide them til better options come along. Only for a few days, not months. But often it's a few days of peace where they can see a better life ahead.

Dont get me wrong, until recently I pushed them to the usual places, I'm not qualified for this stuff, others are. But there are times like bank holidays, a serious lack of spaces or a huge move across the UK and I would put them in my safe house for free for max 4 days. I'd rather just give cash to the people best placed, but now theres so few I want to give money to.

Anyway all that to say yes, we were grinning and teeth chattering scared.

I don't have experience of men joining groups but have some relevant experience. I used to facilitate a peer support group for female victims of serious domestic abuse, all the women were involved with social services, some had had their children removed from their care. We met in a community centre, people could be heard walking past, talking. It was mostly other women in the building but if a man walked past and could be heard the atmosphere in the room would change in an instant. Lots of the women would become more agitated and anxious.
In answer to your question, it's very difficult. The person could be 100% genuine or could be toxic to your group. You won't be able to find that out without coming across as "transphobic". It's sad that trans ideology has trashed so much good faith between women and trans women.

And of course, the other thing is, by the time you've accepted it, it's too late. Having a blanket ban is one thing. Banning an individual transwoman on the basis that they have changed the dynamic of the group due to their sex, will be quite another.

JellySaurus · Yesterday 20:52

Trans women seek to live as women permanently, Are you saying that Pippa Bunce is not a transwoman?

By his own admission, he's a part time cross dresser.

According to St Stonewall, that makes him trans.

Ok, that's helpful. So just to be clear...

Man dressed in stereotypical males clothes - can't access women's spaces

Part-time cross dresser - can't access women's spaces? Can only when in a dress? Must conform to x number of female stereotypes first? Can access whenever they like, regardless of clothes?

Transwoman - can access women's spaces

Rapist in a dress - can't access women's spaces

So just so I can keep myself and my daughter safe, how do I know the difference? Because to me they all look like men in various different clothes to me. I'm guessing they aren't given this list I've just done and self police, especially the rapists, they're not known for voluntarily conforming to laws that keep women safe.

Pips Bunce changed the policy at work so he can use the women’s facilities when he is crossdressing.

So it is more:

Transwoman - can access women's spaces

Crossdressing man in a dress - can access women’s spaces.

Rapist in a dress - can't access women's spaces

I'm still failing to see how I can tell the difference between harmless man in a dress and perpetrator in a dress.

I thought that's why women's spaces existed in the first place because (regardless of clothes) no-one can tell the difference between a harmless man and man who wants to attack women.

Exactly.

Any man who expresses his fetish out in public has already broken some social codes.

He is already proven a higher risk for violating boundaries than men who keep their sexuality private.

He is already using other people without their consent to play a role in his fetish life, by expressing it in public, expressly because others are unable to withhold consent.

So it really is just part of a spectrum of boundary-violation. There is no indication where he’ll draw the line. That’s his call. According to the current orthodoxy.

Cornflakes 💐💐💐

Shame Pippa didn’t come back to explain, I was interested!

All of this.

And this is why I don’t want men of any variety in women’s toilets or changing rooms. We know that the kind of men who want to be there for sexual arousal or because they get a kick out of breaking boundaries and feeling powerful by making women and children uncomfortable or intimidated are the ones most likely to pop on a dress and claim to be a woman to get into women’s spaces. Decent, kind and honourable men would not dream of violating women’s spaces.

I know why I "fawned" I wanted to not get hit. I'm pretty sure colleague was the same. We both chose laughing over running.
Our aim was defuse the situation with laughing. A completely made up situation.
It still weirds me out. I mean we were objectively safe, it was a course not real life. The trainer wanted us to stay back, I think so he could tell us it was fake and possibly to offer help in some form, but we were both first out and we never talked about it. I worked with colleague another several years, so it's not like we never saw each other again.
Anyway the point is fawning isnt just about emotional labour, also self preservation.

@CryInToYourCornflakesNicola it is self preservation. I used humour and fawning to diffuse the situation growing up. Still do it now.

You attempt to stop a problem before it becomes a problem.

🍫(I'm sure we are all flowered out. Have chocolate)

The person could be 100% genuine or could be toxic to your group.

Or - as that story shows - could be 100% genuine but nevertheless be toxic to your group.

Because however well a man behaves, some women will subconsciously react to the pesence of a man and change their own behaviour - or will leave - simply because of his presence.

Well, I'd realised that Philip Bunce is a tosser, but he seems to be several orders of magnitude more so, than I had first realised.

She/they

You'll get deleted if you use the wrong pronouns.

 @CryInToYourCornflakesNicola thank you for helping all those women.

It's honestly not hundreds of women. Maybe 2 a year.