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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

244 replies

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 16:44

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

OP posts:
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CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 08/01/2023 16:55

mythro · 08/01/2023 10:27

@Whatsnewpussyhat
There is a distinction between sex and gender. Gender is a neuro-chemical reaction in the brain, normally along the lines of "I identify as a woman therefore I am a women". This is not a choice and also is something all cis people do. Sex is a person's individual biological markers, this exists and is entirely separate to gender. In everyone's day to day life you always use gender to refer to anything rather than sex, this is why there are stereotypical renditions of "Man" and "Woman" on toilet doors as opposed to the biological markers of male and female. Neither sex nor gender is a binary. Sex and gender are almost always congruent however for a minuscule amount of people they are incongruent, these being trans people. Trans people should have as much right to say "I identify as a woman therefore I am one" as any cis person who identifies themselves the same way. This is because, I restate, that woman is referring to gender rather than sex. If you do categorise using sex rather than gender then you will overlook assigned female at birth people who do not fit into the binary because sex, as well as gender, is a spectrum. In summary trans women are the same as women because "Woman" is an umbrella term that describes both trans and cis women. This is exactly the same for trans men.
(Sources: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexanddgenderdistinction

twitter.com/rebeccarhelm/status/1207834357639139328?s=46&t=VAjMGsL8geOYm4X4Sc8AUA)

We have categorised by sex for time immemorial. Only recently has "gender" become a thing.

I guess I'm not trans or cis as I do not identify as a woman. I simply by dint of biology am one. Like 51% of the population. So if not trans and not cis, I'm a ??!

People are not "assigned" they are seen and documented as the sex they are pre birth.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/01/2023 17:00

The trouble with these pseudoscience "explanations" is that you can see people bending over backwards to try to force some distantly related, minor scientific theory into something resembling a "proof" of genderism

I often wonder who they are trying to convince. Us or themselves.

OneMorePlant · 08/01/2023 17:03

This is why they hate the old joke "I identify as an attack helicopter" so much.

It's a one sentence joke and it dismantles the entire gender thing if you actually use your brain and think about it.

CryInToYourCornflakesNicola · 08/01/2023 17:20

If she's like her mum or grandmother, no man would have a chance of silencing her

But you state twaw, so presumably you will teach her the same and then you will teach her how to tell a predatory Male from a tw. You got that information? You want to share how we all tell men with a fetish or predatory nature from tw. We sure could do with that information severalyears ago now.

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 18:41

Well, it may not even take long for the safeguarding issues to start needing to be addressed. It can start at a swimming holiday club the first year a little girl can do that independently from her parent.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11093519/amp/Elderly-woman-80-BANNED-YMCA-demanding-transgender-worker-leave-womens-locker-room.html

Even though this was in Washington state, this is where we in the UK are heading. Remember we had a girl guiding district leader who was male but under GG rules, leaders cannot tell parents that one of the leaders on a camp is a male so parents could make their own decisions. DBS checks require honesty up front. It has been a known loophole.

So. It is not an exaggeration to say this could happen. That a male who has declared themselves a women could be monitoring little girls changing and toileting.

I would love to know if posters who declare that males can be women are going to be brutally honest about their decision in that regard, or whether posters would comfort themselves saying either it would never happen or that of course that male will be very safe and never have any other motive but to be a great swim club assistant/instructor. Or tell themselves ‘women sexually abuse children too’, when the reality is the % of female perpetrators is still so low compared to males.

I would be interested to know. But I suspect posters will say they wouldn’t care.

waterwitch · 08/01/2023 19:56

Helle I find they generally just don’t answer the difficult questions

OP posts:
NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 08/01/2023 20:24

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 18:41

Well, it may not even take long for the safeguarding issues to start needing to be addressed. It can start at a swimming holiday club the first year a little girl can do that independently from her parent.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11093519/amp/Elderly-woman-80-BANNED-YMCA-demanding-transgender-worker-leave-womens-locker-room.html

Even though this was in Washington state, this is where we in the UK are heading. Remember we had a girl guiding district leader who was male but under GG rules, leaders cannot tell parents that one of the leaders on a camp is a male so parents could make their own decisions. DBS checks require honesty up front. It has been a known loophole.

So. It is not an exaggeration to say this could happen. That a male who has declared themselves a women could be monitoring little girls changing and toileting.

I would love to know if posters who declare that males can be women are going to be brutally honest about their decision in that regard, or whether posters would comfort themselves saying either it would never happen or that of course that male will be very safe and never have any other motive but to be a great swim club assistant/instructor. Or tell themselves ‘women sexually abuse children too’, when the reality is the % of female perpetrators is still so low compared to males.

I would be interested to know. But I suspect posters will say they wouldn’t care.

Or you could be allowing your teenage daughter to be independent and go swimming with her friends at the local leisure centre.

How do she and her friends deal with this? What outcome do activist posters on here want? That she continues going swimming while ignoring her discomfort?
That she self-excludes from swimming forever?

All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?
RinklyRomaine · 08/01/2023 20:36

pippabg · 08/01/2023 13:33

Or perhaps these TW are not trans, but just predatory or fetishist men who are pretending to trans. But we can't know can we, because now anyone who says they are trans instantly must be accepted as trans, which is a fantastic opportunity for predatory men isn't it?

This. This is what I think is at the crux of the issue. I'm so glad you addressed it @SockGoddess . Men who impersonate women to enter women's spaces with ill intentions are not trans women. Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women. Some refer to it as gender dysphoria, a medical condition recognised by the NHS. I get the problem with self ID, I really do, but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen. This discourse really inflames attitudes towards transwomen - the majority- who have done nothing. I have a close trans friend, and have taught many trans and queer undergrad students, and it's upsetting and so wrong to see them talked about in this way and tarred with the same brush as predators and fetishists.

Some of you see me as advocating for men, but to me transwomen are women, which is why advocating for them is completely compatible with my feminism (and many others, as that's a key part of intersectionality). It's fine if it's not compatible with yours. I definitely never intended to speak for all "younger" people, I never could, just referring to tendencies in my own circle and line of work, which is quite liberal. You may have seen negative accounts on social media of transpeople, but the people I see on twitter and tiktok, and most importantly the people in my real life, are quite the opposite. It's obviously a mixed bag like any demographic! And that's my point really, to not stereotype transpeople.

@OneMorePlant 's comment was the one that overstepped the line for me. You have no right to get personal and question my parenting ability when you do not know me, especially in an environment that is supposed to be supportive to new and expectant mothers. If this baby is a girl, I will raise her to have the confidence, courage and independence of thought to advocate for herself and others, just as I was taught. If she's like her mum or grandmother, no man would have a chance of silencing her!

What if she isn't, though? What if she is painfully shy, has disabilities, god forbid has some trauma and is NOT able to draw boundaries, advocate for herself and others for whatever reason? Shouldn't all women and girls be able to depend on some basic boundaries WITHOUT having to shout it out like their mums and grandmas? Will you be able to imbue her with that magic sense to tell which men are really male women and which ones are merely predators? Along with an ability to always speak up for herself?

JellySaurus · 08/01/2023 20:52

Trans women seek to live as women permanently,

Are you saying that Pippa Bunce is not a transwoman?

JellySaurus · 08/01/2023 20:53

Trans women seek to live as women permanently,

Are you saying that Eddie Izzard is not a transwoman?

Signalbox · 08/01/2023 20:57

but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen.

There's no evidence that TW are any less likely to be predatory than other men.

JellySaurus · 08/01/2023 21:07

How can you tell the difference between a predatory man pretending to be trans and a transwoman?

scratchedbymycat · 08/01/2023 21:08

Men who impersonate women to enter women's spaces with ill intentions are not trans women. Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women.

They are, actually. Stonewall says anyone who claims to be a woman IS a woman, No Debate. That INCLUDES predatory men if they claim to be a woman. In Scotland, some MSPs tried to amend the GRR bill to exclude those who were facing rape charges or had convictions for rape from obtaining a GRC, but their amendments failed. This means a rapist (predatory man) can be a woman if he says so. No Debate. This is the reality. There isn't a lovely fluffy version of where only nice cuddly people are trans women and the violent bastards are not - not according to self-ID, Stonewall's definitions or the GRR n Scotland.

If you genuinely believe that predatory men are NOT and cannot be transwomen, you are very mistaken.

And if you do accept that predatory men can also be transwomen, you are faced with a choice: is it, or isn't it, acceptable for predatory males to be allowed in woman's spaces? I don't know how anyone can claim to be a feminist but also knowingly tolerate violent men in womens safe spaces. To me, this is an especially cruel form of misogyny.

Furthermore, let's be very clear that the argument to exclude transwomen from womens safe spaces is no more or less bigoted than excluding ALL men from those spaces. The majority of men don't rape, but a significant minority do and this affects ALL women. Most men understand that this means they, unfortunately, also have to be excluded. That's because it isn't possible to discern the good guys from the bad guys when they are all male.

The same applies to TW - a group which unfortunately encompasses good and bad male-bodied individuals. The majority of TW don't rape, but some do, with devastating consequences for their victims, which means - like men - all TW need to be excluded. I'd be a lot less hardline about this if the GRC process still involved safeguarding in the form of extensive psych evaluations etc - but the demand now is self-ID. No safeguarding. No debate.

If this baby is a girl, I will raise her to have the confidence, courage and independence of thought to advocate for herself and others, just as I was taught.

That's how I was raised too. It didn't stop a man from beating me to a pulp and destroying my "confidence, courage and independence of thought" for years. It was really hard to come to terms with the knowledge that no matter who I was, no matter how clever I was, fit I was, educated I was etc a male - any bog-standard piece of shite male - could dominate and demean me if they wanted to simply because of their physical size and strength.

Lipstick, heels and a frock on a man doesn't change that physical reality.

Women need safe spaces.

scratchedbymycat · 08/01/2023 21:19

"If you genuinely believe that predatory men are NOT and cannot be transwomen, you are very mistaken. "

I should add to this, that as well as being mistaken, you are also transphobic - that is, according to the rules of today. (Rules I ignore).

It doesn't matter if a man is a rapist or not. What matters is how he self-identifies.

We don't get to say who is it or isn't a 'real' transwoman. We aren't allowed to question whether someone might or might not be 'impersonating', we are expected to affirm and accept on blind trust based on self-ID. In fact, you are on very shaky ground even suggesting that some might be more genuinely womanly than others.

Boiledbeetle · 08/01/2023 21:27

mythro · 08/01/2023 02:16

If you were to allow a trans woman to join, them being trans wouldn't be detrimental to the women's group. Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it. So it would be a woman joining a woman's group. At worst it would make you group look more inclusive.

I'm catching up so I'm sure this will have been mentioned many times by the time i get to my own comment many pages in the future, but

Transwomen are not women they are men.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 08/01/2023 22:10

This is a post replying to Maya Forstater when the appeals tribunal ruled on her case. Some people may think Julie is trolling. I assure you, Julie is not.

Julie in fact runs a business in the EDI sector, where Julie offers workplace training on how to treat trans people like Julie. If necessary, I can link to the website.

All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?
All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?
Boiledbeetle · 08/01/2023 22:13

JellySaurus · 08/01/2023 21:07

How can you tell the difference between a predatory man pretending to be trans and a transwoman?

Ooh ooh ooh I know the answer to this one...

YOU CAN'T

Boiledbeetle · 08/01/2023 22:17

Now that I've caught up. There's at last one poster on this thread that as their child goes off to uni in many many many years time in a cut of nostaligia will look back at their early mumsnet posts and think....God I was such a Fucking idiot.

Boiledbeetle · 08/01/2023 22:19

Fit of nostalgia ffs. I'm going to buy a new tablet I think. One that Durant hate me.

See see what i have to contend with why does it think i want to write Durant instead of doesn't. Piece of crap.

Boiledbeetle · 08/01/2023 22:21

And I have to say I don't care if transwomen are men women or Martians.

I don't want them or their cock in my females only spaces. Whether I can see it or not. Just it being there is unacceptable.

Datun · 09/01/2023 01:10

but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen.

No, the enemy is people, including women, not allowing women to have boundaries.

Men who impersonate women to enter women's spaces with ill intentions are not trans women. Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women.

Yet again, another person who is incapable of dragging their focus off men and onto women.

Is there any part of you who can think, even for a nano second of the women and girls who dont want men 'to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women'?

Who don't give a flying fuck how those men 'see themselves', or what their motivation is?

Can you even bear to put women and girls centre stage even for a moment?

Or is it so ingrained in you that even when women across the land are saying no, shouting it from the rooftops, you still cant see to upset a man?

Datun · 09/01/2023 01:12

*bear to

OhamIreally · 09/01/2023 07:48

Sazzasez · 08/01/2023 08:54

I run a writing group. It’s free & we don’t advertise it.
When it started it just happened to have only women in it. We were holding it at a local space run by a charity which we could use for free.
The charity started recommending blokes to it, a couple of whom joined. Changed the dynamics entirely. Talked over people, didn’t feedback on other people’s writing when it was time to listen...
One of the women in the group acted very fawningly to one bloke but then asked if we could go back to being women only. I raised it & it was unanimous. So we dissolved & reformed back to ourselves again.
We now meet in a local cafe. We’ve gained a couple of members, by introduction & approval.

I find that really interesting that it was the fawning woman who wanted it to go back to being women only.

To me that suggests her female socialisation made her switch immediately to "support human" mode as soon as a male was included. A form of emotional labour that meant she no longer enjoyed the club herself.

Helleofabore · 09/01/2023 08:07

For anyone reading this and wanting to find out more this new Helen Joyce interview will is good

ArabellaScott · 09/01/2023 09:00

the enemy is people, including women, not allowing women to have boundaries.

YES. There will always be predatory men. Wearing different clothes, using different catchphrases, different tactics, but with the same aims.

Women have to be able to discuss our safety, our rights, our desires, boundaries, preferences, without it leading to us being labelled 'bigots', being forced out of jobs, being shunned or otherwise punished.

If transwomen can say 'I'd prefer to be in spaces with only women' they are lauded for it.

If women say 'I'd prefer to be in spaces with only women' we are attacked.

Why is that?