All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

[waterwitch]

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

"I identify as a woman therefore I am a women". This is not a choice and also is something all cis people do.

Piffle, dear.

I am identifiably female, on objective grounds. That makes me a woman. There it ends. I don't have a consistent inner image of myself as female, which is surely all a transwoman means by 'identify as'. And everyone is entitled to their own inner image, but when* the transwoman is 6ft4, with a growly bass and jowly stubble, and a miniskirt that wasn't suitable for the weather, you'll forgive me for not quite sharing their view.

*Local pharmacy, last week, since you ask.

This is because, I restate, that woman is referring to gender rather than sex. If you do categorise using sex rather than gender then you will overlook assigned female at birth people who do not fit into the binary because sex, as well as gender, is a spectrum. In summary trans women are the same as women because "Woman" is an umbrella term that describes both trans and cis women. This is exactly the same for trans men.

Absolutely sod that. I've seen what [many] transwomen think being a woman is, I've read what they say when they talk to each other - and frankly, it's insulting. You're insulting women to the bone when you attempt to redefine us as having a "gender identity" in common with male genderhavers.

If you are female, you can define yourself as having a "gender" in common with transwomen, if you like - but you are not allowed to impose that on women as a group. Fuck off with that demeaning nonsense.

I was in that group and know exactly what you mean

And the two TW also seemed to find it very awkward as they stood together unsmiling and looked almost scared of the women and left half way through. So I don't think anyone benefitted. All it did was emphasize the differences.

I'm glad your group dodged that bullet! If it had been a situation other than martial arts they would probably have received some performative fawning and stuck around and the group would have gradually disintegrated because no one was really enjoying it much any more, as has happened in so many of these stories. I guess gushy TWAW types aren't willing to put their own bodies on the line to validate TW (just other women's.)

One time two transwomen joined. They seemed perfectly nice, and people smiled at them, no-one said anything horrible but, when it came to pairing up/changing partners no-one wanted to partner with them. And this was in a group which contained the age range most likely to argue TWAW. At the time I would have said TWAW too if asked but I still felt very uncomfortable about boxing with someone who was that much bigger, more muscley, broader than me

So you're saying that although many women are happy to mouth 'TWAW' when it comes to actually being punched by a TW, most are not quite so happy? Strange. 🤔

support the rights of trans people to "exist and be accepted like everyone else."

That's perfect common sense - you would think - and the view that most people have; but we get all the bizarre complaints to the contrary.

It seems that, whilst using emotive words and phrases like 'right to exist' (with the underlying suggestion that we are threatening their very lives), many want far more than that - ironically meaning denying other (usually women) people's right to exist and be accepted, if we're going by their own rules.

Are the TRA claiming that women want to threaten all (normal male-identifying) men's rights to exist and be accepted - because they aren't allowed into women's single-sex spaces either? They have every single right that everybody else does - just no further 'special' ones.

It makes as much sense as two people sharing a cake and one of them kicking off about the other wanting them to die or be considered persona non grata, just because they don't want them to take more than their half of the cake.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · Today 17:22

It makes as much sense as two people sharing a cake and one of them kicking off about the other wanting them to die or be considered persona non grata, just because they don't want them to take more than their half of the cake.

I love that!

Don't worry. Some are willing to martyr themselves. Check the second screenshot!

A male-bodied person (and not even a slightly-built one) deliberately joining a boxing club, with the express intention of using maximum power and aggression to punch women?

And certain women willing to take a beating from this male-bodied person, because they're so desperate not to upset the male-bodied person's feelz?

Just yet another story demonstrating how it starts with 'affirmation' and ends up in actual deliberate abuse.

Interesting that the determinedly 'non-terfy' person posting for advice felt it necessary to specify that she was 22F in the title of a post asking for advice about being beaten up by a male inserting themselves into a class for women. Almost as if sex matters.

“I’d rather get beaten up than be a transphobe” says young woman allowing a man to beat her up.

Well, looks like her wish is being granted, but this is self-harm.

I only got a half-hearted "Oh. Sorry about that".

This line is a red flag the size of the red sea!

I have years of mixed sex martial arts behind me, so I have both told people, and been told by others, to drop the power. Never has a woman responded in such a desultory manner. I have only ever encountered this from a small minority of men, and in the context of other interactions, it's because those men wanted to hurt their smaller, weaker opponent, and were using martial arts classes as a pretext to get away with it in a socially acceptable way.

Their expectation and hope is that you will be too embarrassed to speak up. You're supposed to accept that being beaten up is the price you pay for even trying to improve your own self-defence skills. It's not.

No-one improves his or her own skills from using brute force on a smaller person, and no-one gets better at self-defence from being used as a punching bag. They only acquire injuries.

Some people (who have never been on the end of this) always try to defend this behaviour as "preparing for a real life crisis situation!" I'm sure there are some people lurking, thinking that right now. To those people, I say:

Would you pay someone to throw your non-swimming five year old off a boat into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean? I mean, swimming lessons are supposed to prepare you for worst-case scenarios like a boat sinking. So why not start by throwing five year olds off boats into freezing water? Think of the money that's to be saved by skipping all those years of carefully graduated classes at the local leisure centre!

Or what about booking your child's first ever riding lessons, but booking the fiercest, most bad-tempered stallion in the county, because you want your child to be able to handle horses like that as an adult?

Martial arts classes are the same as both swimming and riding- you need activities pitched at the correct competence level in order to progress without unacceptable risk of injury.

Don't worry. Some are willing to martyr themselves. Check the second screenshot!

Zero sympathy for this horrible woman who expresses no concern for the other women who might get beat up by this even more horrible man.

Notice “[he’s] heavier than most of us and I don’t want to make [him] feel excluded.” Those are her priorities.

Honestly, she deserves to get paired with him every single class if she won’t speak up. I’m not even going to say what he deserves.

I do hope that it’s a creative writing exercise, but the complete disregard for the safety of other women is sadly typical of these types whether it’s true or not.

As with prisons, changing rooms and everything else - 1 man's hurt feelings trump any number of women's hurt bodies.

Exactly. And ironically demonstrates that genderists really really know who is male (actual Proper People) and who is female (partially-sentient support bipeds).

Genuine question, and apologies if it has already been asked but I have not noticed it:

Would you allow a transman to join your group? Specifically, a transman that "passes", ie, they look male and others would be none the wiser unless explicitly told that they are trans?

Am interested in hearing opinions on this considering many of the comments I have read.

I’m in a all woman charity and the answer would be yes if she understood that it was a group for women, didn’t mind that and didn’t expect us to change our language from woman centred to gender neutral.

@JayJayEl it's a bit of a thought experiment only, as I cannot see why a transman that totally passes would want to join an all-women group that was explicitly set up for women only. But if for some very unusual they did, then that would be fine, with the same provisos that @PomegranateOfPersephone has given.

Slightlybdiffernet situation, but our work women's network is open to 'women, however they identify'. I'm not at all sure women who identify as something else would want to join a women's network - but if they do want to they can, because a lot of what we deal with is related to biology (e.g. menopause policy) rather than identity.