All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

[waterwitch]

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

@mythro
Thats a gish gallop, not a credible explanation of anything. The points do not lead logically one from the other, assertions are beliefs not facts.

”this is why there are stereotypical renditions of "Man" and "Woman" on toilet doors as opposed to the biological markers of male and female.”

oh good. If we change the signs on the doors to male and female, will that be respected? So not one male over the age of 8 will enter that toilet?

I shall get the stickers printed then shall I.

I just asked on a thread with a male trans person OP and asked if trans people would be so disrespectful as to enter a single sex space being a male knowing that entering that female single sex space would cause distress to some females. The avoided answering it three times with distractive techniques.

I think that pretty much says all we need to hear. Straight from a male trans person.

Or are you a male trans person who would like to answer the question?

It would exclude trans widows.

It's particularly awful for you @Signalbox, as you set your branch up. Can you sound out your fellow members and see how they feel?

I belong to a women's organisation, think WI but it's not that one, who are 'inclusive' of TW apparently. I've not met any in the organisation yet and I will stay a member until one tries to join our group. Such a person would, inevitably, change the whole dynamic.

One of the activities I take part in through this organisation is an involvement with a group of vulnerable, disadvantaged women. Many of these women come from a Muslim background. The actual 'parent' organisation that runs this activity firmly believes TWAW. Again, I will continue with this until a TW joins us. I cannot imagine the effect this would have on these women and I couldn't bear to see it. And if we helpers don't go, the club dies. The women lose out. Again.

Thank you for posting. Do you have experience of groups which went from all female to including transwomen? Did the dynamic stay the same?

Sorry for taking so long to respond. Conked out!
I don't like to phrase it that way, because the group has always been in theory inclusive, but we did go from having no TW to a few. Large group.

At first honestly a few people were put off. It took a lot of soul searching from me, but I'm glad we all took a breath. That was say 6 years ago! No issues. I think you could argue there have been 'dynamic changes' but that's only because a few people, including me, had their backs up, all fine now. We've moved with the times, and although I still hold GC views, (I consider myself an agender female/woman) we all rub along great.

The rest of the post is inaccurate, illogical and irrelevant.

I was going to say horse shit.

Feck there are a lot of TRA numpty types loose at the moment!

Let a man in (he's still a man regardless of his his delusional belief he's a woman) but it will no longer be a woman's group. If you are ok with that then fine.

I used to attend a women's group for my industry which is male dominated. When men who identified as trans joined they did dominate conversation and started every statement with "as a woman" we were no longer allowed to discuss certain things they found triggering and the group has now stopped altogether as it no longer met the needs of the women who attended, it was reduced to a fetish theatre for men.

Or perhaps these TW are not trans, but just predatory or fetishist men who are pretending to trans. But we can't know can we, because now anyone who says they are trans instantly must be accepted as trans, which is a fantastic opportunity for predatory men isn't it?

This. This is what I think is at the crux of the issue. I'm so glad you addressed it @SockGoddess . Men who impersonate women to enter women's spaces with ill intentions are not trans women. Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women. Some refer to it as gender dysphoria, a medical condition recognised by the NHS. I get the problem with self ID, I really do, but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen. This discourse really inflames attitudes towards transwomen - the majority- who have done nothing. I have a close trans friend, and have taught many trans and queer undergrad students, and it's upsetting and so wrong to see them talked about in this way and tarred with the same brush as predators and fetishists.

Some of you see me as advocating for men, but to me transwomen are women, which is why advocating for them is completely compatible with my feminism (and many others, as that's a key part of intersectionality). It's fine if it's not compatible with yours. I definitely never intended to speak for all "younger" people, I never could, just referring to tendencies in my own circle and line of work, which is quite liberal. You may have seen negative accounts on social media of transpeople, but the people I see on twitter and tiktok, and most importantly the people in my real life, are quite the opposite. It's obviously a mixed bag like any demographic! And that's my point really, to not stereotype transpeople.

@OneMorePlant 's comment was the one that overstepped the line for me. You have no right to get personal and question my parenting ability when you do not know me, especially in an environment that is supposed to be supportive to new and expectant mothers. If this baby is a girl, I will raise her to have the confidence, courage and independence of thought to advocate for herself and others, just as I was taught. If she's like her mum or grandmother, no man would have a chance of silencing her!

If she's like her mum or grandmother, no man would have a chance of silencing her!

Ah. Yes. If there is one thing that this ideologically driven issue has taught me, is that wonderful confidence that your children will do pretty much what they want when they reach a certain age and often, in spite of you.

And that basing your judgment on the ‘nice’ ones is always a flawed method when there is enough evidence to support that there are indeed ‘not nice’ ones.

Did you really not read the census numbers? And then apply the UK transitioned male sex offender figures.

1 in 585.

If you look at that ratio and believe that is all males attempting to manipulate the prison system, then you probably need to read more widely.

So if your potential daughter is an extremely good athlete and can represent her region or country, what will you say to her regarding male athletes who either take her place on a team, on a podium, or put her at higher risk of injury?

There is a distinction between sex and gender. Gender is a neuro-chemical reaction in the brain, normally along the lines of "I identify as a woman therefore I am a women". This is not a choice and also is something all cis people do. Sex is a person's individual biological markers, this exists and is entirely separate to gender. In everyone's day to day life you always use gender to refer to anything rather than sex, this is why there are stereotypical renditions of "Man" and "Woman" on toilet doors as opposed to the biological markers of male and female. Neither sex nor gender is a binary. Sex and gender are almost always congruent however for a minuscule amount of people they are incongruent, these being trans people. Trans people should have as much right to say "I identify as a woman therefore I am one" as any cis person who identifies themselves the same way. This is because, I restate, that woman is referring to gender rather than sex. If you do categorise using sex rather than gender then you will overlook assigned female at birth people who do not fit into the binary because sex, as well as gender, is a spectrum. In summary trans women are the same as women because "Woman" is an umbrella term that describes both trans and cis women. This is exactly the same for trans men

What. A. Load. Of. Bollocks. Which incidentally, women don't have, because of their sex.

There is no inner magic gender essence or womany brain. Feminine men are not women. Men who don't like being men are not women. Men with dysphoria are just men with dysphoria, not women.

Women is not an umbrella term that includes some men. Women are simply adult human females. Transwomen belong in the men's category.

As we agree gender is not sex, why do men with trans identities need access to female only spaces, sports and services? They are not female and have not changed sex, so why?

You have given me nothing that separates a subset of men from other men and somehow puts them into the women's category. Only 'feelings' which changes nothing or a belief in gender ideology which is religion not fact.

We have the old school toilet door signs because it was the simplest, non worded way to show people of all ages, abilities and languages, which sex the facilities were for, not because women wear dresses.
I don't think pics of a dick or vulva on the doors instead would be publicly accepted do you? (Awaits cry of reducing people to genitals.......)

The good thing about posts like yours is that is shows the lurkers the batshit we have to deal with.

“I really do, but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen.”

How can you tell? And who are you to say those who say they are women are not?

”This discourse really inflames attitudes towards transwomen - the majority- who have done nothing.”

You keep saying this. I know personally and from reading other accounts of female academics who are now fearful of their jobs because of complaints from students. And are you missing the trans students who have been publicly involved in silencing women who disagree with them. Here in the UK.

There seems to be disconnect here in what you believe to be happening and what is being reported by others and the media. Does that not concern you at all?

And again, it is your own prejudice that seems to describe others as coming from other than a ‘liberal’ position. Why? Do you believe that only liberal people share your view and the rest of us aren’t?

Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women.

No, they want to be in women’s spaces because they are extremely entitled men with no respect for women’s boundaries. They don’t gaf about their own impact upon women and girls. “I want therefore I get”.

Selfish, self-absorbed, inconsiderate and disrespectful.

What is missing from your long rambling explanation (source: Wikipedia) is what exactly someone is identifying with when they say they are identifying as a woman.

Are they identifying with the stereotypes of being a woman or something else? If it's stereotypes, which stereotypes might they be identifying with? Would it be the dresses, high heels and makeup stereotypes or the stereotype that they're the person who ends up doing most of the housework and getting paid less at work?

If it's not stereotypes that they're identifying with, what exactly is it that causes a man to say that he identifies as a woman?

@EndlessTea I put that term in my resignation letter to the group I had been in. I haven't heard it elsewhere but I imagine it has been given the purely performative nature of these men's "womanhood" and their strong desire to do so within female spaces, fetish theatre seemed an apt term.

It's particularly awful for you @Signalbox, as you set your branch up. Can you sound out your fellow members and see how they feel?

I’ve thought about it rightsraptor but I think unless someone else brings it up I might just leave it and hopefully it’ll never happen. My husband is in an organisation (not female only obvs) that split when the trans thing came up and that’s just because some wanted to focus on trans issues and some people said they didn’t think it was a good idea. It was a really stressful period and nearly caused everyone in the organisation to call it a day. So even where it’s not female only trans activism can have a devastating effect on an organisation because it doesn’t tolerate differences of opinion.

get the problem with self ID, I really do, but please remember the enemy here is predatory men, not transwomen

How do we tell the difference between predatory men and non predatory men?
You cannot remove all female sex based protections just because some males have a mental health issue called dysphoria, which is no longer even necessary for claims of a trans identity.

You either keep ALL men out or let ALL men in.
Don't you get that? No more female only anything, ever. No boundaries from the opposite sex. Do you not see the consequences this would have for females, just because you think we should 'be kind' to male people who want to trample our boundaries and remove our sex based protections, rights and even deny us the ability to name our own fucking sex class.

'Intersectional feminism' does not mean inclusive of some male people.

Wow. That must be where it’s power came from - deep inside you like that when you firmly drew a line in the sand.

I hope I can remember your username when plagiarise you in future.

Trans women seek to live as women permanently, they want to be in women's spaces because they see themselves as women.

@pippabg As you are so sympathetic towards men who want to 'live as women', perhaps you could explain how a man lives as a woman.

How does a man who lives as a woman differ from a man who lives as a man?

'Intersectional feminism' does not mean inclusive of some male people.

It was another term that has had the definition changed by those people who identify as male.

And some people cannot see the significance of that.

@EndlessTea By all means use it all it! I'm just glad if it expresses something and might be useful.

Thank you :)