All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

[waterwitch]

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

Wallace it just happens to be all female - but it just always has been, and we like it that way (or I thought we did). Previously we’ve invited women we thought would like to get involved, nobody’s ever asked before. I realise that seems a bit cliquey, but it really is small - less than 10, even if everyone turns up, which almost never happens.

I do think those pp who’ve asked how the TW found out have a point. It might have been through the charity, but more likely through someone newish in the group.

Sounds very plausible. TWAW women often do this in female groups. They sometimes deliberately target them.

I don't think you can really call it a 'women's group' if that is not the purpose of the group. What you are really asking is whether a group of women would be happy to welcome a trans woman in their group. That's a very different question.

Wallace, yep, that’s fair

I used to be in a facebook group. I actually was told about the group on here, some people will know which group I mean (it was "main" MN, not this sub). It was for make-up and beauty products and when I first jointed it was amazing. A TW joined and instantly it changed. All they ever did was post photos of themselves in leather miniskirts and red lipstick and the majority of the women would fawn over them and tell them how beautiful they were. It utterly changed the group. I left.

I should 'be fair' and say it was only ever put across as a group for make-up not a woman only space but when I joined it was just women (cunty type) and after the TW joined it became a space for women to tell a man in a leather miniskirt how gorgeous he was.

This also is worth noting. Nobody has ever asked to join before, and the only person who has asked is male?

What is it about this group of women that has seemed attractive, I wonder?

And Wallace, I’m not really asking whether we should be happy to let a TW join, just what other women’s experience has been in similar situations.

There do seem to be a number of similarities in all the experiences reported here - the change in behaviour, social dynamics, conversation topics, self-censoring….. And I’m guessing this is nothing to do with the TW not being a nice person

I find this so sad to read. There are so many stereotypes here about the behaviour of men and women and transpeople. I'm going to be the one dissenting voice and say that I, as a woman and feminst, would welcome them. Any body who aligns themselves with women and women's issues is a sister of mine. Transpeople just want to exist and be accepted like everyone else. Some kindness wouldn't go amiss.

I had reservations about joining Mumsnet because of its reputation for being anti-trans/trans exclusionary, but I am pregnant with my first child and needed some support. I don't want to start arguments, everyone is entitled to their perspective, but I wanted it to be known that not all woman, and most of the woman in their 30s that I know, do not feel like this. To the OP, please don't assume that all women think the same. Also, as it is not even a formal women's charity/group, I don't think there is much reasonable basis to deny them.

If you value your group op, say no to the man.

They target, infiltrate then destroy.

All they ever did was post photos of themselves in leather miniskirts and red lipstick and the majority of the women would fawn over them and tell them how beautiful they were

Why do some women do this? Seriously?
How can they not see this man is very clearly using the group as participants in his sexual paraphilia?

It's just a group of female friends isn't it? You happen to have this charity in common, but essentially you're meeting because you enjoy each others company. If the only purpose was to raise money you could do that by email.

It's a female friend group and someone wants their male friend to join. My teens would have called them a scrape back in the day

There's been loads of posts on MN about someone inviting a new mum to other mum things, then the new mum wants their dh to come as well and the dynamic totally changes.

Just want to mention that I'm also in my 30s, joined MN when I was 21, and I believe in female-only facilities.

Please don't assume that everyone under 40 is pro-mixed sex groups all of the time.

With respect, you sound lovely, and I hope you find MN a great place for support during your pregnancy, but your post is naive.

Fortunately here you can talk openly about your experiences with your own womanhood i.e pregnancy. How would you feel if you were in a women’s group that asked you not to refer to your pregnancy because it hurt someone else’s feelings? This has happened time and time again especially in online support spaces where women have been hounded for not using ‘inclusive’ language.

You may also be a little surprised by how many women in their 20s and 30s keep their heads down and say nothing because they are intimidated by the be kind brigade.

I think you will also find on this board that the unkind women are actually sticking up for all females who may some day have a need to access single sex spaces.

as it is not even a formal women's charity/group, I don't think there is much reasonable basis to deny them.

Er, that's quite the wrong way round! Do you think that if some random bloke chaps on your door you are obliged to let him in because it's your house, not a public building?

There are protections against discrimination in law for people with the protected characteristics. These do not apply to a group of pals meeting up, or informal social situations like clubs, dating, parties, etc.

Also, as it is not even a formal women's charity/group, I don't think there is much reasonable basis to deny them.

I don't think this is correct, they would have to adhere to the Equality Act more if it were a more formal group.

You're extraordinarily naive about why some of these male people want to join women's groups.

A women's sports group had a TW join. They were obviously not female from the way they posted about how great they were all the time, how they were going to compete here and there and get to the Olympics. The rest of the group just ignored the posts after a while. Thankfully they left. Apparently chapter meet ups were difficult with the TW.demanding attention and dominating the talk, most of which was off topic.

Also, as it is not even a formal women's charity/group, I don't think there is much reasonable basis to deny them.

That doesn't make sense. If it's essentially a friendship-based group, nothing would be easier than to simply say they'd rather keep it to the existing circle of friends/only take in new people already well known to the majority of members. There's no right of admission to a group of friends.

@pippabg

Here's an example of what I mean. Here's the story of Princess Mom, who used a female pregnancy group to role play pregnancy and even more grim, stillbirth. Egged on by some truly idiotic women, while women, including at least one who had actually suffered a stillbirth, who objected to the insensitivity were kicked out.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/princess-mom

Things like this always make me think of the croquet club that was established in Wimbledon, London in 1868. It was a popular club, but in 1877, it was decided that they would start playing tennis as well.

The club is still going strong and is now massive. It's still named in honour of both sports. Go into the street anywhere in Britain now and ask people - Family Fortunes-style - which sport they associate with the big world-famous sports club based in Wimbledon. Guess what the top answer would be.

If you place the feelings of men over the feelings, boundaries, experiences and dignity of women you aren't a feminist, you are a men's rights activists.

Standing up for women and their boundaries is neither transphobic nor "unkind". It would do your child a world of good if you would learn that lesson sooner than later.

Especially a girl, it's the worst thing you can do to her is teach her her feelings should be suppressed, her instincts ignored that something is wrong and her boundaries deserve to be broken by unstable men.

Tonight one of the "MtF" founders of the What The Trans? podcast has been tweeting about going swimming. This person is visibly male.

Tweet 1
Went swimming

Found they had open sex segregated changing

Chickened out and changed in the family changing cubicle

My goal this month…actually use the open women’s changing room

Not going to let the moral panic dictate where I go and what I do

I am going to swim

So there are separate cubicles. This person knows there are cubicles and has used them. But it is their goal to use the communal female changing room anyway. No matter how many women are made uncomfortable by it.

Tweet 2:
Double whammy of anxiety. I don’t really like being around naked people and…you know…the press makes cis folks sound scary.

Saying that, got talking to some older swimmers and had a real laugh

Says they don't like being around naked people. Yet the moment they found out there was an opportunity to use an open space where there would be other people naked, and they would be seen naked, they form the goal to use it. Even though there are cubicles in the family changing area. Why?

Tweet 3: Turns out…most people don’t give a fuck about a slightly unkempt deep voiced trans woman in women’s spaces as long as you maintain the etiquette of looking at your body or the floor.

Almost as if anti trans wankers never actually use these spaces and have no idea how they work

And all the women who do give a fuck about the naked male person are expected to stop going swimming, I suppose. Or they are expected to all crowd into the cubicle that the naked male person is unwilling to use.

Does this sound like aligning with women to you? Here's a similar reddit post too.

Seems like the right moment to drop this link here

www.mumsnet.com/talk/petitions_noticeboard/4622036-petition-to-maintain-single-sex-spaces-at-swimming-venues

parliamentary petition to keep changing rooms at pools single sex.

A man asked what about the women that do not want you in their space? are you going to respect their wishes?

Snow from the What the Trans? podcast said...

No.

Where is the identification and sympathy with women?

It’s not just adult women that use that space either. It’s teenage girls and children.

Any body who aligns themselves with women and women's issues is a sister of mine. Transpeople just want to exist and be accepted like everyone else.

Pippa, if this was always true you might have a point, but the problem that many women on here have recognised is that now, far more so than in the past, a great many transwomen don’t align themselves with women at all. 90% keep their penis, many are aggressive towards women, threaten them, hate them or are jealous of them, as you can find them openly stating on Twitter, tik tok and many other online sources, and clearly see at pro-genderism demonstrations. Some coerce lesbians into straight sex because it’s bigoted not to see a TW as a “lesbian”. Some threaten women with rape and murder. For many, dressing as a (highly sexualised, pornified) stereotype of a woman is a fetish that turns them on, and so does being treated as a woman. This type of TW often does not just want to exist and be accepted, they want to use women and women’s spaces for validation, they want to film themselves masturbating in women’s toilets and changing rooms and in some cases, they are sex offenders who use those spaces to attack women and girls. And has been observed many times, they tend to dominate women’s groups they join.

Or perhaps these TW are not trans, but just predatory or fetishist men who are pretending to be trans. But we can’t know can we, because now anyone who says they are trans instantly must be accepted as trans, which is a fantastic opportunity for predatory men isn’t it?

That is one of several problems, not with trans people, but with this new ideology. Others include the transing of children leading to irreversible and often harmful medical treatment, which some come to painfully regret, and the obliteration of the concept of women as a sex class, meaning we can’t define ourselves or fight for our rights, and punishing people for “misgendering” (correctly recognising the sex of) someone else, even if they have learning difficulties, and even if they have been raped by a man who then suddenly decides to identify as a woman.

None of these concerns are about a lack of kindness. They are about a new situation that is really dangerous for women and children, but not for men, which is undoing gains made by feminism. I am fine with trans people existing and being accepted, and protected from persecution and discrimination, but the kindness should be mutual and they too should be accepting - of the reality that you can’t change sex, of the reality that women (and men) need some single sex spaces and services, and that the sexes are different in some important ways that particularly affect female health and safety.

Many trans people themselves share these concerns too.