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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

All women/women and transwomen. How do the dynamics change?

244 replies

waterwitch · 07/01/2023 16:44

I’m in a local women’s charity group. There has been a suggestion that we should consider allowing transwomen (realistically a transwoman) to join. Just wondering if anyone would like to relate their experiences of this situation. I do have an idea of how the dynamics might play out, but would prefer to base this on actuality than my personal stereotyping iyswim

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/01/2023 02:04

and…you know…the press makes cis folks sound scary

I hate this bullshit narrative the TRAs throw around. No wonder teens who say they are trans seem to live in perpetual fear.
Most people aren't trans, or believe in gender batshit, so he has spent his entire life surrounded by so called 'cis folk' that he suddenly thinks are somehow scary. Why? Because they know what sex he is?

mythro · 08/01/2023 02:16

If you were to allow a trans woman to join, them being trans wouldn't be detrimental to the women's group. Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it. So it would be a woman joining a woman's group. At worst it would make you group look more inclusive.

PomegranateOfPersephone · 08/01/2023 02:19

mythro · 08/01/2023 02:16

If you were to allow a trans woman to join, them being trans wouldn't be detrimental to the women's group. Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it. So it would be a woman joining a woman's group. At worst it would make you group look more inclusive.

😂

deeperthanallroses · 08/01/2023 02:24

There are so many stereotypes here about the behaviour of men and women and transpeople.
actually, there are many studies about the behaviour of men and women particularly when in the workplace and they aren’t ‘stereotypes’, they represent what actually happens. Not every time and not every where because that’s how the real world and real people work, but often enough and wide spread enough that it affects women as a whole. For one very common example, Woman speaks: no one pays attention. Man repeats her idea: praise and support.
Also in my 30s and joined mumsnet to get support with my first baby.

SockGoddess · 08/01/2023 02:35

It’s also not a stereotype that males are far more dangerous to other people than females are, on average, however they identify, and especially when it comes to sex offending. It’s just fact. Attacks on and threats to women made by trans people are almost never made by trans men, but by trans women. If being a transwomen meant you really were a woman, or even identified or aligned yourself with women, why would that be?

Ladybrrrd · 08/01/2023 02:41

I've been part of several women only groups over the past few years, mainly Pride groups and lesbian/bi groups. We are trans inclusive and have had no issues.

waterwitch · 08/01/2023 06:30

Ladybrrrd, thank you for posting. Do you have experience of groups which went from all female to including transwomen? Did the dynamic stay the same?

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 07:07

mythro · 08/01/2023 02:16

If you were to allow a trans woman to join, them being trans wouldn't be detrimental to the women's group. Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it. So it would be a woman joining a woman's group. At worst it would make you group look more inclusive.

Have you ever been successful in convincing any woman that any male is just a woman the same as them?

If so, how have you?

Genuinely interested to know.

scratchedbymycat · 08/01/2023 07:43

*If you place the feelings of men over the feelings, boundaries, experiences and dignity of women you aren't a feminist, you are a men's rights activists.

Standing up for women and their boundaries is neither transphobic nor "unkind". It would do your child a world of good if you would learn that lesson sooner than later.

Especially a girl, it's the worst thing you can do to her is teach her her feelings should be suppressed, her instincts ignored that something is wrong and her boundaries deserve to be broken by unstable men.*

@OneMorePlant

I see and understand every word you said completely. Not sure I can articulate this, but ... I'm beginning to wonder if the 'younger' generation hear it the way I do. I filter the word 'boundaries' through specific arguments and politics over decades about boundaries. I hear 'instinct' in the very specific context of my group therapy on male violence. Etc.

I don't know if 'young' generation have the same experiential access to all that. I don't know if straightforward woman's rights language has sort of lost its meaning...?. My nieces - same generation - were equally 'kind' like @pippabg until their mother and I had long chats with them, mainly having to contextualise bog-standard feminist language in the metoo movement so they had some kind of framework. They get it now.

I'm musing aloud, but I keep feeling feminism dropped the ball somewhere and somehow failed the younger generation.

Helleofabore · 08/01/2023 08:02

pippabg · 07/01/2023 23:05

I find this so sad to read. There are so many stereotypes here about the behaviour of men and women and transpeople. I'm going to be the one dissenting voice and say that I, as a woman and feminst, would welcome them. Any body who aligns themselves with women and women's issues is a sister of mine. Transpeople just want to exist and be accepted like everyone else. Some kindness wouldn't go amiss.

I had reservations about joining Mumsnet because of its reputation for being anti-trans/trans exclusionary, but I am pregnant with my first child and needed some support. I don't want to start arguments, everyone is entitled to their perspective, but I wanted it to be known that not all woman, and most of the woman in their 30s that I know, do not feel like this. To the OP, please don't assume that all women think the same. Also, as it is not even a formal women's charity/group, I don't think there is much reasonable basis to deny them.

Good luck with your pregnancy.

I realised pretty quickly just how important a female only space was after I had my baby. Now having watched my baby grow up, I also realise people who use the words ‘anti-trans’ don’t really have a deep understanding of the issues.

I can assure you, as a parent of a current teen, the impacts of ideological thinking is something I live with on a daily basis.

If you think this anyone on this board is denying that trans people exist and don’t have needs that are unique to them, that is your own prejudices speaking.

Many of us on this board have trans people we love in our daily lives, one way or another. Maybe you hadn’t realised this.

I used to tell my child ‘to be kind’ all the time. Until I realised I had raised a tween who felt that they had to accept bullying from others. And that I was there telling my 12 year old to ‘be kind’. I realised then it was not an appropriate parenting choice then and discovered it was not for many future situations
either.

Kindness goes two ways. There are times when women and girls need their own spaces, words and boundaries.

Telling women they are unkind and should ignore those need, is actually the unkind thing to do.

And sorry, this is not an ‘age’ thing.

Polls around tolerance of other people’s opinions show those 18-28 and the age groups around those ages are the most intolerant in society. And they fail to see it because they believe they are the opposite. They believe they are the most tolerant and that all their friends believe the same.

When the reality is that their friends and peers may have different opinions, but never truthfully disclose them for fear of ostracism. And ironically, those declaring all their friends and peers believe the same, will never get the truth. So they will go on believing the self fulfilling cycle devoid of the truth.

How kind is that?

AlisonDonut · 08/01/2023 08:16

mythro · 08/01/2023 02:16

If you were to allow a trans woman to join, them being trans wouldn't be detrimental to the women's group. Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women. Which is completely wrong. Trans women are absolutely women no question about it. So it would be a woman joining a woman's group. At worst it would make you group look more inclusive.

How does a man become a woman by saying words? I am genuinely interested in now you square this up enough to give advice that puts women in actual danger.

Latest stats put men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't. So they would be better off making it simply a mixed sex group. Thus obliterating the safety, warmth and comfort of an all woman space.

Not everything has to be 'inclusive'.

EndlessTea · 08/01/2023 08:25

Whatsnewpussyhat · 08/01/2023 02:04

and…you know…the press makes cis folks sound scary

I hate this bullshit narrative the TRAs throw around. No wonder teens who say they are trans seem to live in perpetual fear.
Most people aren't trans, or believe in gender batshit, so he has spent his entire life surrounded by so called 'cis folk' that he suddenly thinks are somehow scary. Why? Because they know what sex he is?

It’s obvious that it is a fetishisation and reversal of female vulnerability to male dominance.

In other words, when us women go on about how vulnerable and helpless we feel when men violate our boundaries, this cohort of men find it sexy, it stimulates their fantasy/masturbation life and they imagine themselves feeling vulnerable and helpless while being violated.

Added to this, being heterosexual, they imagine that those doing the dominating and violating are women.

Translate cis = women and girls.

EndlessTea · 08/01/2023 08:25

You can see how grim it is that these men aren’t just engaged in fetish, fetishisation, voyeurism and exhibitionism, but they are using social media to amplify it and get off even more.

Arguing with them just adds to the turn-on.

You can’t win.

BlackForestCake · 08/01/2023 08:36

Theeyeballsinthesky · 07/01/2023 16:47

Maybe it’s worth thinking about it like this- your women’s charity wants to allow a man to join. What benefit is it to the women in the charity to allow men to join?

Or like this – your women's charity wants to allow a sexist man to join.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 08:43

Because it's been mentioned before I'll say that a lot of people would, and do, say that trans women aren't women.

You don't say. Shame on them for not buying it every time a male person claims to feel undefinable lady feelings.

RinklyRomaine · 08/01/2023 08:47

HisNameWasMike · 07/01/2023 22:46

I used to be in a facebook group. I actually was told about the group on here, some people will know which group I mean (it was "main" MN, not this sub). It was for make-up and beauty products and when I first jointed it was amazing. A TW joined and instantly it changed. All they ever did was post photos of themselves in leather miniskirts and red lipstick and the majority of the women would fawn over them and tell them how beautiful they were. It utterly changed the group. I left.

That group was so good until it turned into validation for a fetish.com. It amazed me how women who spent hours perfecting makeup techniques and supporting each other suddenly all started posting all these bizarre 'you're so gorgeous!!!!!!' Comments on what was clearly wank fodder.

Sazzasez · 08/01/2023 08:54

I run a writing group. It’s free & we don’t advertise it.
When it started it just happened to have only women in it. We were holding it at a local space run by a charity which we could use for free.
The charity started recommending blokes to it, a couple of whom joined. Changed the dynamics entirely. Talked over people, didn’t feedback on other people’s writing when it was time to listen...
One of the women in the group acted very fawningly to one bloke but then asked if we could go back to being women only. I raised it & it was unanimous. So we dissolved & reformed back to ourselves again.
We now meet in a local cafe. We’ve gained a couple of members, by introduction & approval.

theghostwriter · 08/01/2023 08:59

Recently I discovered a man was joining our women's book club. Not trans, just a guy that some of the women feel sorry for as far as I can tell. There wasn't any discussion, the women who want him in are kind of running the group, so he just turned up one evening. I know I'm not the only one who isn't happy about it because a couple of the other women commented afterwards that we won't be able to have the same forthright conversations as we used to, and 'when was this decided?' The whole nature of the group will change from what started out to be a woman only group to a mixed one.

The thing is, even if they had opened it up for discussion I would have found it hard to be the one saying 'I don't want a man in the group'. I actually used to go there for light hearted chat about books with other women and I don't want to get into the whole feminist debate with other women from the village who will judge me for my views for the rest of eternity. From previous experience I suspect the other women who agree with me privately will be far too 'kind' to stick their necks out and say they don't want men, even if this guy is in need of emotional support.

My point is in relation to the OP situation: women only should be understood to be women only. Even discussing allowing men changes the group because it's so hard for women to stand up and be counted that they won't do so. They'll just quietly leave.

In my case it's no big deal, it's just a book club and I'm experiencing irritation rather than trauma, but for some women the group could be their lifeline and finding themselves in a situation where they're in conflict with the other women in the group and having to explain themselves could be the last straw even if the man never joins.

That's why the principle of women only is so important. Groups are either genuinely for women or just another resource for men.

QueenHippolyta · 08/01/2023 09:01

10years ago I got reported to the organizer of my lesbian social group by two trans-identifying males for joking to the women "Who wants to be a male?"
She made me apologize to them or I would have been thrown out of the group....

Males are poison to female groups and female empowerment.

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:21

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?

Oher · 08/01/2023 09:22

You’ll get exactly the same dynamic as with any other man inserting himself into a woman only group. He’ll dominate the group and take up most of the conversation time talking about himself and how wonderful he thinks he is, and many of the weaker-willed women will hang on his every word and compete for his attention/ suck up to him, while the more assertive wonen will feel displaced and become silently hostile then eventually leave.

You see the same kinda thing with monkeys.

AlisonDonut · 08/01/2023 09:24

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:21

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?

Census data released 2 days ago and the stats from the prison service.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

SockGoddess · 08/01/2023 09:25

Yes for me being with only other women gives me firstly a feeling of security and safety, that I don’t have to feel on edge in the way I do around men. It’s not that all men are dangerous or that women can’t be aggressive, of course, but men are stronger and more likely to be aggressive, especially sexually. I am a sex abuse survivor (though I would also support any woman who felt this way for any reason, or none) and that “on edge” feeling is built into me. Being among women only is a lovely, warm, relaxing and reassuring feeling.

Secondly it is about what you can talk about. Being a woman/female is a physical reality with many body issues and experiences no male will ever know, and being able to chat about and share them and laugh about them is so supportive. But even just a normal, well-meaning man in a female group changes the dynamic because talking about these female experiences is embarrassing for both the women and him so it just stops. I had a group of female friends in the past who would meet up to do crafts and it was lovely, but then one started bringing her husband because they were joined at the hip and he was bored at home (or he was controlling, but that’s what she said). He just basically sat and watched and said nothing. But it wasn’t the same, the conversation dried up and it wasn’t fun any more. Of course women don’t just talk about periods and childbirth, at all, but it’s that feeling that you can say anything and other women will get it.

add transwomen into the mix and it’s different again because not only does the person have no genuine experience of being female, but it’s considered offensive to remind them of that, so now you risk being not just embarrassing, but offensive and as has been reported, could even be reported and chucked out (depending on the nature of the group). And for some TW, they want to join women’s groups for validation and sexual turn on and so will seek them out, and try to harass and punish any group that doesn’t want to allow them. A truly respectful male person, whether trans or not, would understand that women having an all-woman group share something that they don’t, and would respect that. (And some transwomen do respect that.) so you’re left with the ones who don’t have any respect for women or their feelings or needs. They’re the ones who want to be there.

Of course if you do want your group to be inclusive of any male who says he’s a woman that’s a valid choice too but it’s not a women’s group. Even if you thing transwomen really are women, there’s no way to tell who’s a transwoman and who’s just a man saying he’s a woman for his own motives, which could be sexual or predatory. You’re opening your group up to any male who wants to be there. And that’s why many women will stop going. I no longer bother with any woman-only crafts, adventures, clubs, etc at all because when you look closely it always says “women and anyone who identifies as a woman’ so I know I can’t expect to have that cosy reassured feeling, and not only that, but if a male is there, I have to suck up to him and fake seeing him as a woman, or be punished. No thanks.

Desperatelyseekingreason · 08/01/2023 09:29

@Alisondonut thank you.

That's quite shocking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/01/2023 09:39

Can any one link to the source of the statistic that shows men who say they are women as 5 times as likely to commit sexual offences than men who don't?

It comes from the new census population figures. Thread here where it's discussed in detail: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4714523-1-in-585-trans-women-are-convicted-sex-offenders

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